Alpine climbing - double ropes or tag line

I am planning a trip to Swtizerland and am keen on climbing  long, moderate multi-pitch trad & sports routes.

Some routes require rappelling but I  currently only own a 70m 9.5 and a 40m 9.4 rope.

Would I need to buy a double rope or is a tag line ok? What are the pros and cons. And any brand and size recommendations?

Thanks!

Most would climb with twin ropes in Europe. It's safer to climb with than just using a single on alpine routes (nearly double the fall rating) and gives you the quick option to tie them together for long raps or if you need to bail. I also use them new when leading two followers on alpine terrain - you can belay two people at the same time. I also sometimes like having the option to just take one 8.5mm for super lightweight simulclimbing alpine missions.

I picked up the Mammut 8.5 Genesis Dry ropes and am in love with them. Super lightweight and after a full season they still look and feel brand new. Pricey but it's been worth it for me.

https://us.mammut.com/cat/3022/half-twin-ropes/

I was debating A similar issue for climbing Mt Moran in the Tetons. We’ll be simuling most, if not all, of the route. I’ve got a set of doubles (Mammut Phoenix 8mm), but Kiwi coiling two ropes seemed ridiculous. I looked into tag lines, but the way they’re rigged looks like it would add a lot of potential for a stuck rope. Not to mention then you wouldn’t even have any rope to ascend to unstick your rope forcing a free solo. I then looked at the Beal Opera 8.5. It can be used as a single, double, and twin. It’s light and seemed the perfect solution when combined with one of my doubles. We could simul with it, or pitch it out if need be without the hassle of double ropes. The only problem is that I’d have to buy it. Talked to a guide friend and he suggested I double up one Phoenix for simuling (Leader ties into both ends while follower ties into the middle) and pack the other. 

Anyway I realize my situation is a bit different, since were planning on simuling, but I’d stay away from a tag line. I don’t have experience with one, but looking at the way they’re rigged just screams stuck rope to me. Also backcountry has the Phoenix on 25% off sale right now. 

Another option that I find myself using more often is a single 70m rope and an Escaper.  That way you only have to deal with one rope, but you can still rap the full length of the rope.  

Steve Golebiewski wrote: Most would climb with twin ropes in Europe. It's safer to climb with than just using a single on alpine routes (nearly double the fall rating) and gives you the quick option to tie them together for long raps or if you need to bail. I also use them new when leading two followers on alpine terrain - you can belay two people at the same time. I also sometimes like having the option to just take one 8.5mm for super lightweight simulclimbing alpine missions.

Do they really mostly climb with twins in Europe?  I always felt the higher impact force made them less safe in the alpine.  Halfs are the way to go if you are going skinny.

Steve Golebiewski wrote: Most would climb with twin ropes in Europe. It's safer to climb with than just using a single on alpine routes (nearly double the fall rating) and gives you the quick option to tie them together for long raps or if you need to bail. I also use them new when leading two followers on alpine terrain - you can belay two people at the same time. I also sometimes like having the option to just take one 8.5mm for super lightweight simulclimbing alpine missions.

I picked up the Mammut 8.5 Genesis Dry ropes and am in love with them. Super lightweight and after a full season they still look and feel brand new. Pricey but it's been worth it for me.

https://us.mammut.com/cat/3022/half-twin-ropes/

This! Having the Genesis doubles has made me want to climb in a group of 3 way more than I would with single ropes, less weight to carry and fun to have another friend on the route. 

Having never actually climbed in the alps (only Via Ferrata) I am not an expert, but the Brits and other Euro's seem to climb exclusively on half/twin ropes for alpine and big rock routes. Certainly a benefit to it, but there is a skill to managing two ropes that you should learn before you get there.

I have noticed that Canadian ice climbers use twins as well, for probably the same reasons.

I'd recommend a set of double ropes.  If you stick a rope on rappel, or, damage one with rockfall, then you still have a viable dynamic rope.

Not common to use a tag line on long routes in the Alps.  

Exception might be if you knew the route had a walk off or escape options that could be done with half your lead rope.  Some longer routes in the Alps are set up to rap with a single rope.  A tag line might be useful for routes that have just the last rappel as a mandatory double (I can think of a few in the Dolomites).

Some ropes are rated for use as a double or single and could be paired with a double to use that system.  That way you could avoid bring three dynamic ropes (a single and two doubles) in your luggage.  

Having climbed a great number of routes in Europe during almost 10 years, I would recommend two half ropes. While slightly heavier than twins, you can clip them separately and have the luxury of essentially two lead ropes. But twins may be more in vogue now than the late 80's and 90's when I was there. Mr. Buck Rio aptly points out that there is some technique with using this system. It is highly advisable to read up on the differences and  attempt to get in half  a dozen routes employing that technique before  your trip. It's a great system, but not always needed on routes. This system wins merit on long alpine routes, such as in Chamonix, the Berner Oberland or big mountain routes in the Dolomites. There are many fantastic sport alpine routes in Switzerland, that are, for example, upwards of 15 to 25 pitches, and doubles may not be needed on such routes. The Jorg von Kanel "Schweiz Extrem" or Schweiz Plaisir" are great guides, although he is sadly no longer around his guidebooks were amazingly well done...but those guides have great pictorial beta... Charlie

Thanks for the replies. I have decided to stick with bringing my 70m 9.5 single and borrowing a friends 60m 8.5 double rope for rappels if needed as I  will probably be also doing some single pitch sports climbs and not too keen on lugging 3 separate ropes and camping gear halfway around the world. (also there is zero alpine climbing where I live so it seems like a waste to buy 2 double ropes).

And I will definitely pick up on the guidebooks before I go.

Charles Gray wrote: Having climbed a great number of routes in Europe during almost 10 years, I would recommend two half ropes. While slightly heavier than twins, you can clip them separately and have the luxury of essentially two lead ropes. But twins may be more in vogue now than the late 80's and 90's when I was there. 

I´m not aware that any company makes ropes only rated as twins, they have all been twin/half rated for decades (many were only certified for half-rope use but all would have passed the twin standard anyway). 

The concept that someone would carry a 70m 7.5mm tag line in their rucksack (and presumably leads on a single rope) when they could be climbing on two ca 7mm ropes freaks me out!  

Jim Titt wrote:

I´m not aware that any company makes ropes only rated as twins, they have all been twin/half rated for decades (many were only certified for half-rope use but all would have passed the twin standard anyway). 

The concept that someone would carry a 70m 7.5mm tag line in their rucksack (and presumably leads on a single rope) when they could be climbing on two ca 7mm ropes freaks me out!  

And as an American, I can't fathom why Italians and French don't have/use air conditioning when it is above 35 degrees?

Just cultural differences. Most people haven't been exposed to the half rope concept. I have and I still don't care for it. Two people need to be proficient using them, unless you have a steady partner that you climb with all the time, most people won't be safe using them.

Buck Rio wrote:

And as an American, I can't fathom why Italians and French don't have/use air conditioning when it is above 35 degrees?

Just cultural differences. Most people haven't been exposed to the half rope concept. I have and I still don't care for it. Two people need to be proficient using them, unless you have a steady partner that you climb with all the time, most people won't be safe using them.

Double ropes aren´t exactly rocket science, even the stupidest Brit manages it! When I taught trad climbing we allowed half a day to teach belaying and lead tactics and expected the belayers to proficient within three days. With twin ropes there´s nothing new to learn (except how to cope with 120m of thin rope with a life of it´s own at a belay).

When I travel (fly) to destinations where I´ll be both sport climbing and multi-pitch trad I just take a pair of 7.8mm ropes, the only downside being I can´t use my GriGri but since we don´t work sport routes much that isn´t a problem.

Jim Titt wrote:

Double ropes aren´t exactly rocket science, even the stupidest Brit manages it! When I taught trad climbing we allowed half a day to teach belaying and lead tactics and expected the belayers to proficient within three days. With twin ropes there´s nothing new to learn (except how to cope with 120m of thin rope with a life of it´s own at a belay).

When I travel (fly) to destinations where I´ll be both sport climbing and multi-pitch trad I just take a pair of 7.8mm ropes, the only downside being I can´t use my GriGri but since we don´t work sport routes much that isn´t a problem.

I think my point was, Jim, I can't be sure my new rope partner will be proficient if I meet them in an on-line forum and plan to climb with them. Most Americans won't have a clue what to do with a half rope(they might not with a single either, but that is another story). While I have used halves for ice climbing (ice climbers must be smarter!), I use the single/7mm Tag line set up for multipitch.

Channing Lai wrote: 

Some routes require rappelling but I  currently only own a 70m 9.5 and a 40m 9.4 rope.

Would I need to buy a double rope or is a tag line ok? What are the pros and cons.

There is a third option: Beal Escaper and single rope. Very light. There have been discussions in various forums, I think someone said they used it a lot while many people considered it an accident waiting to happen. Obviously like any equipment it must be used correctly. Basically the first person rappels (in complete safety with a stopper knot in the device) while the top person checks for any slippage and for retrievabilty and then follows on a now pretested setup but without the stopper knot.

Steve Golebiewski wrote: Most would climb with twin ropes in Europe. It's safer to climb with than just using a single on alpine routes (nearly double the fall rating) ......

uhhh, say what?

Hi, this seems to be quite a funny topic from my point of view since I come from Europe. We often have the trouble to decide whether to bring double/half ropes or a single rope when going to the US. It is ofcourse a weight issue. I prefer the first option also because it makes longer raps possible. However the main reason for us using twin or double ropes here in Europe is different. There are reports about accidents where single ropes got cut on a sharp edge or by a falling piece of rock BUT there is no report about two cut twin or double ropes. Seeing that a huge part of Alps is lime stone (which has sharper edges and is more fragile than granite) this makes sense here in Europe. Honestly I have seen hunderts of weird looks when free climbing with two ropes in Yosemite :-).

As an American living in Switzerland, I think that you're probably fine with either. I use a single 70m for sport climbing, and half ropes for alpine missions. If you check the beta beforehand, you can tell pretty easily whether you need to do a double rope rappel or can get by with 30-35m rappels. Most places I've been, it's fairly easy to bail on a single rope, and if not then I knew that before I started up. So if you can plan out the routes you want to do in advance, you can probably get by with a single 70m.

Good advice here....also consider the Edelrid Rap Line II----it's a tag line, but if you double it and climb on it as a twin, it will hold two UIAA leader falls---so you get some versatility with your tag line if your dynamic cord gets stuck. 31g/m.

You could also go with an Edelrid Skimmer. 7.1mm, lightest half-rope on the market--note that it's rated half and twin, so versatile. Barely heavier than the Rap Line described above.

If you think you'll use 'em more than just your trip to Europe, a set of twin/half ropes, 50m, is awesome....but you could also make a tagline set up work. The Rap Line II is pretty sweet....it elongates a bit, so they designed it so you can rap on two strands---both the Rap Line and your dynamic rope without much differential slipping at the anchor----so you don't necessarily have to rig it "reepschnur" style....but rap normally and then pull your dynamic rope. I have not tried this, but it's the way the rope was designed. In the event you do get your dynamic cord stuck (as I did in Vegass), you can double the Rap Line, lead on it as a twin and climb back up to retrieve your stuck rope. This I have tried and it works just fine....didn't fall, though! 

I climbed on halves for the first time the other day and absolutely fell in love. They were 7.5mm, a bit on the thinner side, and I'd probably go with either an 8 or an 8.5 myself, but I'm a big fan nonetheless. The versatility, redundancy, reduction of rope drag, and rappell length make it super valuable in an alpine environment.