Quad anchor masterpoints

For quad anchors, for SERENE principle, why don't you use two strands for one carabiner and the other two for the other carabiner for the master point? i'm not seeing the redundancy unless a knot fails but then wouldn't it fail either way then? Isn't 2 and 2 safer then 3 and 1? or 2 clipped 2 not?

Or is it because it creates wear where the to carabiners meet on the 4 strands? 

I've always clipped 2 and 2.

See here:
https://www.climbing.com/skills/learn-this-build-a-quad-anchor/
http://rockandice.com/climbing-news/climbing-anchors-and-the-evolution-of-the-quad/

Edit: but pls take my advice with a grain of salt - I'm not a total noob, but more of in an "advanced noob" category. So if somebody knows better, I'd love to learn from them.

Thomas Young wrote: For quad anchors, for SERENE principle, why don't you use two strands for one carabiner and the other two for the other carabiner for the master point? i'm not seeing the redundancy unless a knot fails but then wouldn't it fail either way then? Isn't 2 and 2 safer then 3 and 1? or 2 clipped 2 not?

Or is it because it creates wear where the to carabiners meet on the 4 strands? 

It's really common to clip 2 strands OR go 3-1. If you're using multiple master points I like one locker on 2 and another locker on the the other 2. Whatever works for you. 

2 strands for you, 2 for your partner.

  John Wilder wrote · 11 hours ago · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,530In all honesty, I've never seen any point to using a quad since it does nothing more than a regular cordlette style anchor and requires more work to setup.

+1, I'm 80/15 . . . 5% unresolved(Un-Gld'D

In rare cases, It is a redundancy that would have saved a few lives for sure. so of course, an obvious, place to add redundancy.   knowing before hand, that it might be an issue with newer climbers, who expect to see a mini quad at least..

 When  in the canyons & woods what seems overkill, adds wear resistance, there's no good reason not to,

 so as hard as it has been, (ie:not very hard)

and wanting to avoid the junk-show  dangling off me, I've started to carry,    `A Pre-Tied Mini Quad,  

 

The knot is to ensure the biner does not go over the failed piece and free itself from the system. The master point is the space between the knots... If you are asking why people clip 3 strands instead of just 2, out of the 4, it is because it provides more strength with thinner cordage. Three strands are stronger than two. When you are clipping into the Quad using two strands you are creating 2 master points.
Clickify this site and be learned...

https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/6/27/the-masterpoint-the-shelf-the-components-anchor-anatomy-in-action

You know what just occurred to me...  Ever since John Long did his flawed testing and updated his book with the 'quad' setup.  I've been seeing it written about for years.

I have yet to see anybody actually use one in climbing or have one on their rack...

patto wrote: You know what just occurred to me...  Ever since John Long did his flawed testing and updated his book with the 'quad' setup.  I've been seeing it written about for years.

I have yet to see anybody actually use one in climbing or have one on their rack...

I only carry one if I know there will be bolted anchors, but I do carry one sometimes.

A quad in 7mm cord is a beast... but the "mini-quad" is actually not so bad.

https://northeastalpinestart.com/2017/11/02/tech-tip-the-mini-quad/

I never carry a pre-tied quad..mainly because i want the flexibility to set up whatever anchor i need to based on the situation.

if you want to make your quad super bomber take two strands and turn it like a magic x. bomb proof!

patto wrote: You know what just occurred to me...  Ever since John Long did his flawed testing and updated his book with the 'quad' setup.  I've been seeing it written about for years.

I have yet to see anybody actually use one in climbing or have one on their rack...

I use it on bolted anchors, especially when block leading. It is just really quick and easy. 

John Wilder wrote: In all honesty, I've never seen any point to using a quad since it does nothing more than a regular cordlette style anchor and requires more work to setup.

In places where all the anchors you are going to see are bolted, you just leave it tied, with the carabiners still on it. Reach the bolts, clip, clip, you have an anchor. It definitely doesn't require more work than a cordelette when done this way, unless you leave your cordelette pretied (including the master point--and in that case the usual way of tying the master point may need adjusting so the cordelette will still be slower).

It's not a multi-purpose tool--it's a fast way to make an anchor when you have bolts. If there aren't bolted anchors, the quad is useless. And if only some of your anchors are bolted, the speed gain has to be weighed against having to carry two anchor setups (the quad and the cordelette).

I generally build my anchor from the rope unless I know the route has bolts at most or all of the anchors, in which case I'll bring a quad to save time.

For everyday climbers quads have no practical advantages over using the rope to build the anchor. They are entirely inflexible for trad protected routes where flexibility is required to equalise multiple anchors not always clustered around a focal point (same applies to cordlettes).

They only work on bolted sport routes where the arrangement of bolt pairs is repeated and granted, can be very easily linked using a quad.

But...why bother carrying an extra piece of kit when it's possible to use existing hardware on your rack and connect both bolts in a way that is in most cases faster.

Guiding on a sport route with guide plus 2 I can see why they would be useful but it is possible to rig other ways and ditch kit that can be only used on a belay.

John Wilder wrote: In all honesty, I've never seen any point to using a quad since it does nothing more than a regular cordlette style anchor and requires more work to setup.

Not if it's pre-tied. 

Francis Haden wrote: They are entirely inflexible for trad protected routes where flexibility is required to equalise multiple anchors not always clustered around a focal point (same applies to cordlettes).

That's not true - when leading in blocks or leading every pitch of a trad route with bolted anchors (like tons of moderates in Red Rock) - I just pre-tie two of em. It takes maybe a minute and a half to do both. And like David mentioned above - clip, clip, clove, off-belay. Red Rock is absolutely perfect for the quad.

I'm not understanding why people say it only has one propose.  You can untie the quod and use it in hundreds of configurations.  You can set up 4 piece anchors with it just as fast as a cordelette.  "Pre tied" is only two overhand knots.  That doesn't take that long at all.  If you use 5.5 power cord it is much smaller.

Matt said what I was trying to say

I find the quad pretty nice when rapping to bolted stations. Pre-tie one, send it down with the first person. They clip it to the bolts, clove in, second person rappels and clips into the quad as well. Pull and thread the rope, pre-rig the next rappels, and unclip the quad to send down to the next anchor.

Also, for those claiming the quad is more bulky than a cordalette...are you comparing dental floss cord to a nylon quad? Jokes aside, a dyneema quad properly coiled is definitely smaller and lighter than a 6mm cordalette. As for the argument that you can't make a trad anchor, it's pretty straight forward if you treat the open quad sling the same as a big loop of cord. Clip pieces, pull strands down, tie masterpoint. I'll often leave the ground with an un-tied quad, use it in the open configuration on the way up, then quickly tie off a pre-rigged quad anchor for rappels.

As with everything else in climbing, it's a tool. And if you have many tools in your toolbox, and an understanding of when each is appropriate, you'll be a better climber.

When you rack a quad, you "swirl" it up enough so that it is as tight as possible, and clip both loops to a carabiner. It is as tight and compact as you can make a sling. Bulk is a non issue, if you're already carrying a long cord.

Great for 1-4 pitch climbs with bolted anchors. Yes, you can do the same with the rope, and yes there are quicker "more pure" options, but for casual days in the mountains with variable block vs alternating leading, it's really convenient and flexible. Often my partner and I will have two anchor setups in the above-type scenarios: (1) a quad and (2) two double length slings. The quad is more pleasant to clip into, belay, adjust any position, and unrack to the shelf on. 

John Wilder wrote:

You can leave your 48" sling pre-tied cordlette style and achieve the same result with less bulk.

I've tried this and you're not wrong. It works if the bolts are all in the same configuration, but slight variations in bolt positioning can force you to choose between taking the time to re-tie, or belaying from an awkward position. The quad master point has enough "wiggle room" to account for minor variations in bolt positioning. I see it as a tradeoff: the cordalette style pretied sling is smaller, while the quad can handle more situations. The cordalette style one could handle most bolted anchors at the Gunks.

Parker Wrozek wrote:

I use it on bolted anchors, especially when block leading. It is just really quick and easy. 

+1