Industrial forged & galvanized eye bolts for glue-ins: Where are we at?

Hi all,
I dug around on the internet and these forums, but think I could use a little more insight here.  If this has already been hashed out to death, by all means, please ignore.  The bolts in question are 3/8" or 1/2" forged eye bolts, hot-dipped galvanized, easily sourced from all over the internet, made in large quantities overseas.  Both photos were randomly pulled from the internet; the bolt in question is on the left in both photos.

Has the development community nixed these, or are they still considered a decent option for glue-ins?  I'd rather go with stainless of course, but the cost difference makes this worth considering.

FOR:
- I was just in Finale Ligure, Italy, a coastal limestone climbing destination.  Clipped a lot of these that were 20-30 years old; they looked and felt great.  Essentially no rust, pitting, or streaks below on the wall.
- Sounds like they were used a lot and are holding up well in Rumney, NH?  In a previous MP thread, someone who did a lot of that development had positive things to say about them.

AGAINST:
- I'm loath to put non-stainless anything into any wall, anywhere
- Questionable quality control when using generic industrial grade hardware instead of climbing-specific stuff
- The previously mentioned MP thread showed some instances where these made white/red streaks on the rock below them...no good

My uses:  new bolts in mostly dry-climate limestone for routes that will be very low traffic, and since I'll have them anyways, replacing some old galvy wedge bolts in granite.

Thanks for any input.

There are good ones and bad ones, the Hilti scaffold eyes were a mainstay of Frankenjura bolting until stainless bolts became cheaper.
Then there are the cheap CAST ones with inclusions where the eye joins the shaft and snaps off.

The inherent risk with sport climbing is the assumption and expectation that any fixing must be safe. Placing non certified hardware simply raises questions as to its reliability and longterm performance.

In short, it is n't helpful for climbers (especially non bolters) to assess what they are clipping. With certified fixings it's possible to recognise when something is n't safe. Additionally you will be endorsing bolting standards and directly supporting climbing bolt manufacturers.

Zinc galvanised steel ringbolts have the unfortunate effect of killing lichen on the rock surface as zinc leaches out of the bolt, leading to the distinct vertical streaks common to French sport cliffs.

I'm not sure there is enough information to give you a definitive answer. I don't have it that's for sure. It's never a bad idea to ask what everyone else at your location is doing. Often they have it all sorted out what is effective for that area. I can add a bit to your specific questions and hopefully get you closer to some answers.

I once worked for a place that rebuilt Twin Disk Boat trannys and power take offs for a while. I have met multiple old timers who said that galvanized steel OUTPERFORMS stainless in seawater. Including one fella that further specifically defined it by saying that he had twin engines, and when he rebuilt them (I confess to forgetting which part it was lets call it X part) he replaced X part on his twins with Galv steel. Later, bearing goes out on one and the rebuilding mechanic refuses to replace x part with Galvanized, saying he would never put it on a boat moored in seawater: stainless steel ONLY. Within a year the "new" shiney SS part had corroded to shit, boat owner got a free replacement that time....also stainless steel. Within the next year the replacement SS part went to shit and had also corroded away, meanwhile the origonal galvanized part on the other engine still looked great, having outlived 2 SS replacement parts on his twin a few feet over. He was telling me the story years later, the origonal HD Galv part and the fijnal HD Galv replacement were still looking good he relayed to me.

BUT, the caveat is I can't tell you what the SS material was (SS comes in many differing grades, 304 is not as good as 316 and hardened stainless like 420, although stronger than either of those 2  will start rusting to shit immediately. If you don't believe it I suggest you put a SOG Flash 2 in your car door, drive to the beach, sleep over a couple of days and drive back (I have pictures of this effect someplace). The SS blade will have rust on it. So with that in mind, realize that steel also comes in many many configuartions. I would guess that neither you nor I know what the Italians material was? I have no clue anyway. I can bet that the one on the left in your picture is a mild steel eyebolt. But was it cast in China? If so, where in China? It makes a difference. They often will reuse metal to stretch it out and it's full of shit and impurities. There are high grade metals being made in China by many manufacturers, and also many backyard operations still mfg crap. Who made your eyebolt in the pic?

Plating, you saying that you will be replacing some "old galvy wedge bolts" makes it appear you may be unfamiliar with plating as well. Let me note that Hot Dipped galvanized is what I was refering to when I say Galvanized. Because HD Galv was so good, "Electro-galvanized" zinc was named. Zinc is not HD Galvanizing. Not even close. Wedge anchors never came HD Galvanized just zinc, and stainless 300 series outperfoms Zinc plating (aka Electro-galvanized) in all conditions at all times. Hot dipped galvanized also outperforms zinc in the corrosion resistant arena- always.

There are additional technical considerations. As Jim Titt will tell you, the short version is that after studying it the DAV (Germans) have recommened discontinuing use of threaded U-bolts. The threads are too shallow to be consistant grabbers of the glue. So think of this, they have 2 threaded pieces and you and your U bolt will have but one. And they say don't do it even with the 2 legs. So, if you look at the pic of the SS eyebolt on the right, you see the deeper marks? To get what you want on the threaded eyebolt on the left, you will need to take a chop saw or file, and make some deep striations for the glue to hold. Once you do that and you should if you want them to be strong,  you will have an unplated mild steel part (no coating or plating at all where you sawed, filed or ground) that you are going to be putting in direct contact (depending on where the glue ends up) in dry limestone. Limestone is corrosive. Wet worse than dry. How much more or less? I have no clue. Your call and it might be wise to see what's working in that particular rock (see my opening statement) . It's possible that the Italian guys just stuffed off the shelf eyebolts in those holes, but it's also possible that they bought plain ones (NO plating) then filed or sawed lines and grooves in them for the glue to run in and better secure them, and THEN plated them. In that case they would be much longer lasting by a huge margin. So maybe ask them what they did, along with if they can provide photos and the exact process they utilized to achive the 20-30 year thing you note. 1/2" diameter mild steel should be plenty strong, especially when you do the recess for the eye that your photo shows is started.

Good on you for researching it first. More info is much better than less before you start in! Jim Titt up there is a master at this (a master of metallurgy?) , and most likely if you search his posts you'll find plenty of info on this very subject. Here's a link to what use to be JT's site (still is yours Jim?) There's plenty of more info to soak up on what they have learned, you may go with there stuff as well, bigger isn't always better as it turns out. http://www.bolt-products.com/ClimbSicily.htm and http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

Good luck

Billcoe wrote: although stronger than either of those 2  will start rusting to shit immediately. If you don't believe it I suggest you put a SOG Flash 2 in your car door, drive to the beach, sleep over a couple of days and drive back (I have pictures of this effect someplace). The SS blade will have rust on it.
Good luck

You are definitely 100% right about 420 in a marine environment compared to 300 series, but I think you also just got a bad knife - I have been EDC one of those for years and lived a block from the beach for a while and I haven't ever seen a spot of rust on that thing. 420 in direct salt spray will rust very, very quickly, but it's also shouldn't be rusting while you're parked at the beach for a couple days.

One anecdote of unknown parts, with unknown composition and source of manufacturing delivered second or third hand does not make galvanized bolts better by any means. MANY variables none of which are discussed in that anecdote to consider.

Given that a proper SS glue in bolt is cheaper than the comparable bolt plus hanger made of proper SS materials there really is no way to justify using mystery crap from China for your routes.

If the route is worth bolting it is worth using proper hardware.

Sure it´s still my website!

Back in the day when the first Euro bolt standard was introduced (1996) there was a huge discussion regarding SCC and stainless bolts but the decision was to only allow stainless steel material (bearing in mind what happens in Thailand is of no concern to a European standard). The main objectors to stainless were the USA (due to involvment in Thailand) and France (due to the number of bolts on the sea cliffs in the Calanques) and the French sport climbing federation FFME continued to produce galvanised, hot forged bolts in a near-medieval agricultural workshop in central France and their use drifted over the border into the Mediteranean coastal areas of Italy.
The rest of Europe went over to stainless steel and nowadays that is what climbers expect to see even though there is now no material requirement whatsoever in the standard (or for the UIAA Safety label).
Basically nowadays if you use plated steel you will go down in history as being "cheap"  
I´d still want to know they were a "good" product though!

Thanks for the input, everyone.  Nice to hear from folks significantly more knowledgeable than myself.  Nothing's black and white, but I've got a much better idea of the situation now.  Funny to hear that it all kind of comes back to stubborn French people.

I wouldent use them. The quality control is too questionable and they might fail well below their rated strength if there is a defect in the workmanship. It's not that uncommon. I've seen cheap shackles fail at low loads because they were not made correctly.