Devil's Lake gear?

what's a standard leading rack for DL routes up to 5.10-ish?

and what will I want for top ropes?  e.g. how much webbing or static rope, tree protectors, rope pad, etc.

thanks!

Standard rack, offset stoppers, c3's. I like ball nuts too but I can't remember how often I place them out there.

Some long pieces of webbing, 30ft?, And a few pieces of gear is all you need for TR.

Doubles cams to 2in plus a set of nuts ought to get the rest done, which is pretty standard for just about any area.

And...it depends what kind of a climber you are, don't over think it though. Enjoy!

Best to bring your A game for leading at the lake. The ground is never too far away and the rock type has very low friction, so cams don't work as well as on other rock types, even ones that look bomber. For this reason I usually favor a passive placement over a cam if possible. Hexes work really well here.

Set of stoppers
Offsets nuts
C4 .5 to C4 #3
Some hexes, any brand
and some Tri-cams up to maybe the blue

Top ropes:  Bring a lot of webbing I would say a couple 30's and one longer maybe 45 ft., or bring a static line.  Trees and rocks are the preferred anchors on routes. Most will take gear but still may be a ways back from the top of the climb.

Buck Rio wrote:...the rock type has very low friction, so cams don't work as well as on other rock types, even ones that look bomber. For this reason I usually favor a passive placement over a cam if possible. Hexes work really well here.

I don’t find the “cams don’t work as well as on other rock types” rumor to be true at all. I’ve seen big and little cams in a variety of placements hold lots of falls. My experience has been that well-placed cams hold just fine. While I haven’t pull-tested any, I’d guess well-placed cams will fail the same way they do in pull tests (you know the ones where they place the cams in a steel jig - I wonder how the friction of that steel compares to DL quartzite).

One thing I can say about cams in DL quartzite is that the rock (assuming it’s not loose or fractured) is solid. Well-placed small cams can be remarkably good (like a 20-30-foot, factor ~.33, onto a 0.2 X4 with only two lobes engaged holding just fine - nice work Eggs), unlike in other rock where the rock itself might fail when those micro-placements deform crystals.

Of course it should go without saying that you shouldn’t take the advice of anyone but yourself when leading. I will agree with Buck that leading at DL is the real deal, the ground is close, on lots of routes especially those >=5.10 the gear is finicky, small, and specific. It’s rare to see people new to the area onsighting anything over 5.8 that isn’t obviously well-protected from a visual inspection done from the ground.

For toproping, ditch the webbing and get 60ft of ~9mm static.

For leading <=5.9 or PG:
X4’s 0.1-0.75
C4’s 0.5-4 (doubles 1-3)
TCUs 00-2 (gray to blue)
Stoppers 4-11
DMM offsets 4-11

For headpointing >=5.10 or PG13:
Smaller nuts than above
C3’s Gray-Yellow (000-2?)
Ball nuts 1-4

PM me if you have specific questions for specific routes.

Edited for grammar and to fix some formatting issues related to posting from my phone.

Tradiban wrote: it depends what kind of a climber you are, don't over think it though.

but that is the kind of climber I am...  :-)

Shit you might need triples to 3 then. And lots of "micro" shit too, whatever that means.

James is right....well placed cams do work.  The thing is, in Baraboo Quartzite, cams tend to move a bit as you move past them. So a good cam becomes a poor one.  I watched someone on Sometimes Crack place what looked like a good alien but he clipped it off directly and that sucker rotated when he moved past it. You can argue all you want about the rock, the stuff is slick. Make sure your placements are well set and can't move.

Buck Rio wrote: James is right....well placed cams do work.  The thing is, in Baraboo Quartzite, cams tend to move a bit as you move past them. So a good cam becomes a poor one.  I watched someone on Sometimes Crack place what looked like a good alien but he clipped it off directly and that sucker rotated when he moved past it. You can argue all you want about the rock, the stuff is slick. Make sure your placements are well set and can't move.

Cams that walk aren't well-placed. ;-)

In parallel sided cracks, a cam will walk if you have enough rope movement and you can still have an excellent placement. In fact, that is why cams were invented. Because if you have one of those rare pods that seems to be made for a cam placement, it will also be a perfect hex placement.

Buck,

I don't want to get into a big discussion about this, but this isn't completely true:

In parallel sided cracks, a cam will walk if you have enough rope movement and you can still have an excellent placement.

This is why we use slings to extend placements, so that rope movement isn't an issue. How a placement is attached to the rope is as much a part of that placement being "well-placed" or "excellent" as the placement itself.

Further this isn't completely true either:

In fact, that is why cams were invented. Because if you have one of those rare pods that seems to be made for a cam placement, it will also be a perfect hex placement. 

I can think of lots of placements in parallel-sided cracks that are "capped" or limit the ability of a cam to walk in some other way. Like this one for example.

James:  I am pretty experienced, I've been climbing for 30 years, all over the world on every type of rock. Most of it with cams. I know how and when to extend placements.  A straight in crack (Think Serenity/Sons) doesn't necessarily need a long runner, in fact for me speed was safer than trying to extend every placement. But those are all pin scars and took cams and nuts really well.

And do some reading about why Ray Jardine made Friends....because the parallel side cracks in Yosemite resisted taking hexes and was impeding climbing the harder lines, like Phoenix crack. And by definition if there is a "capped" placement, it isn't a parallel sided crack.

Sorry OP for the thread jack. Use cams in DL, just be careful. There was a recent death due to cams pulling in DL from a competent leader.

Oh boy! Topic of the year, Do cams work at DL?!?!?!

Tradiban wrote: Oh boy! Topic of the year, Do cams work at DL?!?!?!

Of course they do!  I never said they didn't. 

But I know James is a good guy, he loves his home crag and is WAY more familiar with the rock than a non-local. Which is why I wanted to caution a travelling climber. 

DL homers are just overly sensitive to perceived criticism about the place. DL is my home crag when comes down to where do I climb the most.

Tradiban wrote: Oh boy! Topic of the year, Do cams work at DL?!?!?!

 James:  I am pretty experienced, I've been climbing for 30 years, all over the world on every type of rock. Most of it with cams. I know how and when to extend placements.  A straight in crack (Think Serenity/Sons) doesn't necessarily need a long runner, in fact for me speed was safer than trying to extend every placement. But those are all pin scars and took cams and nuts really well.

I've got 21 years under my belt, so not quite as experienced as yourself but still experienced.

I haven't carried a hex on a lead rack for probably 18 of those years, but I don't have hard stats on that (it might be 15).

You are correct; on splitter cracks, where cams are placed in pods/scars (like Serenity/Sons or 90% of Indian Creek for that matter) extension is generally not needed. I'm not saying you don't know how or when to extend placements; I'm saying that if a cam walks, then it's inherently not well-placed. That said, lots of routes at the Lake link incipient features and require long runners to keep them from walking. Yes, extending takes time, but it's likely that a hex placed where a cam would need to be extended, would also need to be extended. Further, if speed is the concern, there is no way the fastest hex-placer in the world is faster than the fastest cam-placer in the world. All else being equal; cams are faster to place for an individual who is equally adept at placing both.

And do some reading about why Ray Jardine made Friends....because the parallel side cracks in Yosemite resisted taking hexes and was impeding climbing the harder lines, like Phoenix crack. And by definition if there is a "capped" placement, it isn't a parallel sided crack.

I'm aware of the original purpose for Friends (I, like you apparently, am a student of climbing history), but their purpose has broadened as cams have improved and people have embraced the benefits of cams over hexes (mainly speed, "comprehensiveness" of range, and the rate at which aptitude can be obtained). Hexes, which you're free to love and use, are no longer a useful addition to a modern rack - at least in my opinion. If you see me carrying them; it's because I'm teaching an anchors or lead course and want to use them as a visual in my "Why-You-Shouldn't-Waste-Money-on-Hexes" rant for folks who are building their first rack. Some folks, like yourself, have them on lockdown, and are great with them, and accordingly should use them, but they're just not really relevant for the rest of us. The "passive-is-better" mindset belongs in the dustbin alongside the "no chalk" and "no hangdogging" mindsets of yore. To be sure, everyone ought to know how hexes work, but in the same way students in modern classrooms spend the majority of their time using pen & paper (or even, gasp, an iPad) with only the passing mention of a slate, modern climbers should spend most of their time training on and using modern equipment.

With respect to the "capped" placement, the linked photo of the #2 BD looks pretty-parallel at the placement, and a hex would surely be less-ideal than the pictured placement. I can think of many more such situations at DL where a parallel crack caps-out and a hex would be dubious at best. Sure there are places that a hex will work and a cam won't but I suspect the cam is the more versatile piece if only because of their more continuous range outperforming the much more discrete range of hexes. Using a "hard" definition of parallel (as in parallel everywhere), means there are no parallel cracks, anywhere.

Sorry OP for the thread jack. Use cams in DL, just be careful. There was a recent death due to cams pulling in DL from a competent leader.

About all we know about that tragedy is that two cams failed. We have no idea about the quality of those placements, and speculation that they were good or bad is hard to justify.  All I can add to that discussion is that I've seen and taken a lot of falls on cams at the Lake and never, to my recollection, have seen a cam fail - not even ones I thought were highly-suspect.

James Schroeder wrote:

I've got 21 years under my belt, so not quite as experienced as yourself but still experienced.

I haven't carried a hex on a lead rack for probably 18 of those years, but I don't have hard stats on that (it might be 15).

You are correct; on splitter cracks, where cams are placed in pods/scars (like Serenity/Sons or 90% of Indian Creek for that matter) extension is generally not needed. I'm not saying you don't know how or when to extend placements; I'm saying that if a cam walks, then it's inherently not well-placed. That said, lots of routes at the Lake link incipient features and require long runners to keep them from walking. Yes, extending takes time, but it's likely that a hex placed where a cam would need to be extended, would also need to be extended. Further, if speed is the concern, there is no way the fastest hex-placer in the world is faster than the fastest cam-placer in the world. All else being equal; cams are faster to place for an individual who is equally adept at placing both.

I'm aware of the original purpose for Friends (I, like you apparently, am a student of climbing history), but their purpose has broadened as cams have improved and people have embraced the benefits of cams over hexes (mainly speed, "comprehensiveness" of range, and the rate at which aptitude can be obtained). Hexes, which you're free to love and use, are no longer a useful addition to a modern rack - at least in my opinion. If you see me carrying them; it's because I'm teaching an anchors or lead course and want to use them as a visual in my "Why-You-Shouldn't-Waste-Money-on-Hexes" rant for folks who are building their first rack. Some folks, like yourself, have them on lockdown, and are great with them, and accordingly should use them, but they're just not really relevant for the rest of us. The "passive-is-better" mindset belongs in the dustbin alongside the "no chalk" and "no hangdogging" mindsets of yore. To be sure, everyone ought to know how hexes work, but in the same way students in modern classrooms spend the majority of their time using pen & paper (or even, gasp, an iPad) with only the passing mention of a slate, modern climbers should spend most of their time training on and using modern equipment.

With respect to the "capped" placement, the linked photo of the #2 BD looks pretty-parallel at the placement, and a hex would surely be less-ideal than the pictured placement. I can think of many more such situations at DL where a parallel crack caps-out and a hex would be dubious at best. Sure there are places that a hex will work and a cam won't but I suspect the cam is the more versatile piece if only because of their more continuous range outperforming the much more discrete range of hexes. Using a "hard" definition of parallel (as in parallel everywhere), means there are no parallel cracks, anywhere.

About all we know about that tragedy is that two cams failed. We have no idea about the quality of those placements, and speculation that they were good or bad is hard to justify.  All I can add to that discussion is that I've seen and taken a lot of falls on cams at the Lake and never, to my recollection, have seen a cam fail - not even ones I thought were highly-suspect.

Omg dude, you need a new hobby and a lesson in brevity.

I think it's about time for another "Cam vs. Hex" catfight...  James I will leave it up to you to start a new thread...

Seriously, I don't fall a lot, I place mostly (75-80%) cams, reserving hexes/nuts for hands free placements and to save my cams for later. I don't like Tricams, but understand their utility. I don't like hexes, but they are light and cheap. For this, I really like the DMM torque nuts, and I use them kind of like a lot of the Tri-cam fanatics do, in places where a cam won't fit, or looks suspicious.  

My only wish is for cams to get cheap enough so beginners can afford them. My nephew is just getting started, and I gave him all of my older cams (new slings) so he wouldn't have to rely on passive gear. Up until this year he was only sport climbing, but want to get into trad. Climbs at the Red a lot.

As an aside, I'd love it if someone could rob a HD still of this from somewhere and Photoshop a #11 of hex into WF's hand:

Buck Rio wrote: My only wish is for cams to get cheap enough so beginners can afford them.

Hence my aforementioned rant for people building a rack:

Everyone is should buy a set of Stoppers #4-13 (0.27"-1.38) = $109.95

Then take the $119.95 they'd spend on a set of hexes #4-11 (0.81"-3.51") and spend that plus $29.95 on a #2 and #3 C4 (1.46"-3.46").

Thusly covering virtually all of the same size range, and building for the future without acquiring a bunch of expensive aluminum that will (should) end up gathering dust in a closet somewhere. ;-)

If you want something done...

BTW - you're all welcome for this.