Is it safe? Top-rope anchor using single locker redirection at bolt in addition to quicklinks

Recently an experienced climber showed me a super simple way to set up top-rope using the following:
(Assuming 2 bolts with chains and quicklinks on each chain)
- Pass rope through both quicklinks
- Add a locker at the base of one of the anchor bolts (preferably the higher one)
- Pass the rope through the locker (essentially redirecting the rope up to the locker, which in turn takes all the load)

This seems to be good in that it reduces wearing of the quickclips by way of putting all (or nearly all) load onto the locker.  It also seems to maintain redundancy in the case of a bolt tearing out.  With a dynamic rope, I see no shock-loading risk.  The only big question I have is about redundancy..  Is it okay (again, top-roping) to have all the load going onto a single anchor point (the one holding the locker)?  Is that problematic?

I would not be bother by the rope going through a single locker in this setup. However, my bigger concern is with how the rope will run through everything. With basically no load on the chains that means they are free to move about which I could see the rope as it moves lifting the chain and the two becoming bound up. 

Yes it's fine, I do this all the time. Sure it's only one locker but it's backed up by 2 quicklinks that ought to be pretty bomber

Allen Sanderson wrote: I would not be bother by the rope going through a single locker in this setup. However, my bigger concern is with how the rope will run through everything. With basically no load on the chains that means they are free to move about which I could see the rope as it moves lifting the chain and the two becoming bound up. 

A non-issue. 

For me, main thing here is to insure the lockers can hang freely.  

Had a case where someone went into the chain links in a way that held one or both of the lockers out of otherwise natural alignment with the rope.  First person to top rope couldn't top out due to massive twisting of the rope.

Another way that you could do this is to use a large carabiner as a master point at the end of the chains

Gage Holbert wrote: Another way that you could do this is to use a large carabiner as a master point at the end of the chains

Sure, but that defeats the purpose. The advantage of this technique is that the rope is running over your own gear for toprope laps, but still pre-threaded through the chains for fool-proof cleaning. If you're out with beginners who aren't ready to properly clean an anchor, and you don't want to reclimb the route yourself to clean it, you can use this setup and the last climber up only has to remove the locker and lower down without any untying or retying of their knot. 

Yeah, this is fine. 

Mike Mike wrote: Recently an experienced climber showed me a super simple way to set up top-rope using the following:
(Assuming 2 bolts with chains and quicklinks on each chain)
- Pass rope through both quicklinks
- Add a locker at the base of one of the anchor bolts (preferably the higher one)
- Pass the rope through the locker (essentially redirecting the rope up to the locker, which in turn takes all the load)

This seems to be good in that it reduces wearing of the quickclips by way of putting all (or nearly all) load onto the locker.  It also seems to maintain redundancy in the case of a bolt tearing out.  With a dynamic rope, I see no shock-loading risk.  The only big question I have is about redundancy..  Is it okay (again, top-roping) to have all the load going onto a single anchor point (the one holding the locker)?  Is that problematic?

Running the rope through the quicklinks like this set up the possibility that you drag the chains up to your locker.  It might not be a major concern, depending on your rope diameter and how much freedom of movement the chains have, but it could be an issue.  Also, you have to be careful that all the orientations line up so that you don't end up creating twists in the rope.  Clipping to the bolt orients the biner parallel to the wall, while most times when you want to lower off quicklinks, you want to use the quicklinks that are perpendicular to the wall, so the rope has a clean path and isn't twisting.  If you are belaying multiple climbers off the top rope set up, your are just making these small issues more likely to present an issue.

If you thread through the quicklinks, you are creating redundancy right there, but you also have the tiny possibility of shockloading the quicklink, which may have a sharper edge than a biner, which could damage the rope.  But I really don't see this as being significantly faster or simpler than using a pre-tied quad or just 2 quickdraws.

The one advantage of a system like this is that if you have a single, far less experience partner, the leader (whom I am guessing is more experienced) is untying, setting up the system, then retyping before being lowered.  All the follower has to do is clean a single locker and never has to fiddle with the ropes.

Beyond that, I don't see any advantage.  Using a pre-tied quad or 2 draws requires 3 more biners and either a cordalette or 2 dogbones, really not much more gear in the scheme of things.  You have the same amount of time to thread everything through, it is just that the first person up has to do it in your case while the last climber has to clean otherwise.

No. Just no. Two lockers, no quicklink bs.

Its fine and petty much overkill from a safety standpoint.   If its running through the quicklinks you don't even need one locker if the quicklinks are in good shape.   Just oppose the gates.   Its way overkill.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote: Its fine and petty much overkill from a safety standpoint.   If its running through the quicklinks you don't even need one locker if the quicklinks are in good shape.   Just oppose the gates.   Its way overkill.  

Oppose the gates of the quicklinks? And toprope through them? What? 

caesar.salad wrote:

Oppose the gates of the quicklinks? And toprope through them? What? 

I'm saying with the picture above you could if needed not use locking carabiners and just use non lockers and oppose the gate.  Top rope through the non lockers and run the rope down through the quicklinks.  Of course if you are going out for a day of top roping most people have a few lockers so throw one in the system if it makes you feel more secure but there is no reason two non lockers with gates opposed are any less safe.  People are locker crazy around here.

Looks safe enough but I dont really see the point.  You are just moving the work of threading the chains from the end to the beginning of the climbing session.   it looks like it could get tangled in some situations as well.   i would climb on it for sure, but prefer to keep it simple.

sounds like a cool idea to me for easier cleaning.

I run this setup as standard (one locker).

Works really well for groups and mixed experience levels as it solves the “who’s gonna clean?” conundrum when there’s a million top ropes on the wall.

If I’m with beginners, it’s much much easier and faster to rig this for the first few climbs to keep the fun level up and gradually introduce new concepts.

If it’s me and a solid partner, anchoring and rap/lower is discussed on the ground before the leader climbs.  Sometimes we do this, sometimes we don’t.

The major caveat is, as mentioned, keeping the locker & chains aligned to prevent rope twist.  And the chains must be sufficiently long to ride on the locker.

Why not use a Quad?  If it is pre built you wouldn't need to run the rope through the two quick links. 

The whole point of this is to make it so an experienced leader can set up a TR in a way that a non-experienced person can later clean. I do this sometimes and there are several ways to set it up. The key, though, is to lead the climb, thread the chains, then arrange another piece of YOUR OWN GEAR to take the weight and wear of the TRing. In my experience it tends to work fine with a pair of quickdraws set up just like I would even if it weren't threaded (opposed, in other words) but you can do it with carbiners, too. No need, really, for it to be a locker, after all, the rope is through a solid metal chain link. It's not going anywhere. 

Nate Tastic wrote: Could it be a bad habit to get into? That is, for the less experienced, could seeing it done this way all the time lead to inadvertently setting them up for issues down the road? Not saying that's the case but, it came to mind, just the same.

Potentially, yes.  If the contraindications and overall purpose of the system aren’t communicated, and especially if the less experienced party is wanting to continue on in climbing.  Then the approach should facilitate cleaning as a follower at some point, as it’s reasonable for a leader to expect that skill of a follower.  Personally, I try to emphasize the “many ways to skin a cat” perspective based on the situation at hand.  

This goes the opposite way, as well, if your partner is experienced but unfamiliar with the method.  

Around here the prevailing system is still QD anchors, tethers, & rapping...so there is also the issue of “so-and-so does it this-or-that way.”

In any case, I feel communicating your intent is essential, even if it’s as simple as “when you get to the top, do X.  If you want to know how that works, I’ll walk you through it back on the ground.”

Nate Tastic wrote: Could it be a bad habit to get into? That is, for the less experienced, could seeing it done this way all the time lead to inadvertently setting them up for issues down the road? Not saying that's the case but, it came to mind, just the same.

There are lots and lots of things that competent, experience climbers do that a beginner should never do, simply because the beginner can mess it up and not realie it until it is too late.  This would actually be pretty low on that list for me.