First Look: Scarpa Maestro Mid & Comparison to TC Pro

I'm sure some of you are interested in the new Scarpa Maestro Mids, here is a QUICK review. I will not be keeping them for a specific reason but I can see they would be excellent shoes for many climbers.
Sizing
I typically wear size 41.0 Sportivas and 42.5 in Scarpa Instinct line. These two shoes are 42.0 TC Pro and 43.0 Maestro. Heel tension and sole length are basically identical, so lengthwise I'd say they are identical. Size up 1.0 size from your TC Pro size if you don't have a good place to try them on.  Both shoes weigh 11.4 ounces.

Fit
Overall I feel the Maestros are more comfortable than TC Pros.  The tongue material is better (padded leather) and doesn't have the annoying issue where it doesn't stay put. Honestly looking at the TC Pro side by side the tongue is terrible in several ways. The front of the Maestro is unlined leather from the end of the back end of the laces except for the very tip over the big toe which is a continuation of the sole fabric, which I think is synthetic.  Back is padded over the ankle bones, lined otherwise.  There is more volume over the 4 small toes, more rand rubber, and designed in a nice way that reminds me of the old red Instinct laces. Slightly less asymmetrical than the TC Pro, frontpoint is over Big toe and the next toe. I'd expect this would be a good shoe for those with Morton's Toe.  My other big issue with TC Pros is how narrow they are at the pinky metatarsal, just behind the toe, any significant stemming and the pressure there becomes unbearable, I've had cobblers stretch them out to help a little but I don't ever have this problem with Scarpas. This is the only situation where I feel Sportivas are too narrow for me, but it has made me buy other brands before. 
Better tongue, toe point, and randing shown above. 
EdgingSame rubber and thickness as TC Pro. TC Pros are noticeably stiffer brand new, although this diminishes. I'd give the 'edge' to TC Pros, but if sized right I wouldn't have qualms using either of these for steep vertical test pieces.  One thing Sportiva got wrong is how the laces buckle on the inside  of the shoe between first and second speed lace eyelets. They come with a Mythos/Testarossa style lacing to combat this, but I feel like you loose some efficiency there. No problems with the Maestro Mid. 

Crack ClimbingThese two pictures of the toe profile shows how much bulkier the front end is of the Maestro. Much more comfortable for me, but significantly worse jamming on Red camalot and smaller would be expected. Personally I need this pair of shoes to be killer on finger cracks, so low profile on the pinky side edge (2nd photo) is a must. Sadly, this is the sole reason I won't be keeping the Maestros. 
  Another shot showing the difference in toe profile. 

Conclusion
I think these are great shoes, I'm sorry I can't get them on rock or plastic but I don't think there would be any big surprises.  Comfort wise, I could wear these on multipitches for longer than TC Pros. Performance wise I think they may be equals outside of crack climbing some sizes, which is pretty glaring issue for what most people will use these for: trad climbing.  There is also an Alpine version in the works with insulation built in that would be a game changer for those times where you need to wear socks for warmth.

Jon Rhoderick wrote: I'm sure some of you are interested in the new Scarpa Maestro Mids, here is a QUICK review. I will not be keeping them for a specific reason but I can see they would be excellent shoes for many climbers.
Sizing
I typically wear size 41.0 Sportivas and 42.5 in Scarpa Instinct line. These two shoes are 42.0 TC Pro and 43.0 Maestro. Heel tension and sole length are basically identical, so lengthwise I'd say they are identical. Size up 1.0 size from your TC Pro size if you don't have a good place to try them on.  Both shoes weigh 11.4 ounces.

Fit
Overall I feel the Maestros are more comfortable than TC Pros.  The tongue material is better (padded leather) and doesn't have the annoying issue where it doesn't stay put. Honestly looking at the TC Pro side by side the tongue is terrible in several ways. The front of the Maestro is unlined leather from the end of the back end of the laces except for the very tip over the big toe which is a continuation of the sole fabric, which I think is synthetic.  Back is padded over the ankle bones, lined otherwise.  There is more volume over the 4 small toes, more rand rubber, and designed in a nice way that reminds me of the old red Instinct laces. Slightly less asymmetrical than the TC Pro, frontpoint is over Big toe and the next toe. I'd expect this would be a good shoe for those with Morton's Toe.  My other big issue with TC Pros is how narrow they are at the pinky metatarsal, just behind the toe, any significant stemming and the pressure there becomes unbearable, I've had cobblers stretch them out to help a little but I don't ever have this problem with Scarpas. This is the only situation where I feel Sportivas are too narrow for me, but it has made me buy other brands before. 

Better tongue, toe point, and randing shown above. 
EdgingSame rubber and thickness as TC Pro. TC Pros are noticeably stiffer brand new, although this diminishes. I'd give the 'edge' to TC Pros, but if sized right I wouldn't have qualms using either of these for steep vertical test pieces.  One thing Sportiva got wrong is how the laces buckle on the inside  of the shoe between first and second speed lace eyelets. They come with a Mythos/Testarossa style lacing to combat this, but I feel like you loose some efficiency there. No problems with the Maestro Mid. 

Crack Climbing

These two pictures of the toe profile shows how much bulkier the front end is of the Maestro. Much more comfortable for me, but significantly worse jamming on Red camalot and smaller would be expected. Personally I need this pair of shoes to be killer on finger cracks, so low profile on the pinky side edge (2nd photo) is a must. Sadly, this is the sole reason I won't be keeping the Maestros. 

  Another shot showing the difference in toe profile. 

Conclusion
I think these are great shoes, I'm sorry I can't get them on rock or plastic but I don't think there would be any big surprises.  Comfort wise, I could wear these on multipitches for longer than TC Pros. Performance wise I think they may be equals outside of crack climbing some sizes, which is pretty glaring issue for what most people will use these for: trad climbing.  There is also an Alpine version in the works with insulation built in that would be a game changer for those times where you need to wear socks for warmth.

Nice review. Thanks! Review The General shoe from Evolv and the Butora high top trad as well!!

Nice!  Yeah, I agree with your assessment...high profile toe is a dealbreaker.  I think the General has that same problem, and the rubber toe patch seemed like a bad idea to me.  I feel like the laces on the Scarpa look a bit more exposed and will get shredded easier.

I tried them on at Rock and resole yesterday. VERY WIDE and HUGE VOLUME IN FOREFOOT.   They performed on edges by rolling right off. For me, these don't compare to TC pro is any way. Not even close. Might work if your standard shoe fit is a EEEE

mountainhick wrote: I tried them on at Rock and resole yesterday. VERY WIDE and HUGE VOLUME IN FOREFOOT.   They performed on edges by rolling right off. For me, these don't compare to TC pro is any way. Not even close. Might work if your standard shoe fit is a EEEE

You are being dramatic about the fit but I do potentially agree about the edging performance. I have a normal width foot and have never worn an extra wide shoe like EE. I am just wide in the toes with a small heel and Scarpa is the only brand that fits. Sportiva, TC Pros included are way too narrow in the toes even sized up. I’ve tried on the Maestro Low at R & R and while the heel was a different baggier design and I didn’t like how soft they were, the width was no bigger than normal. They fit similar to my Instinct Laces in width just softer and more relaxed.

I have been using TC Pros since day 1 but don't love them (too narrow, stupid tongue, hurt my heel) and I couldn't wait to get the Maestro Mids and pre-ordered them but ended up returning them.

I am 41.0 relaxed 40.5 peformance in the TC Pros and the equivalent fit in the Maestros was 42.0 and 41.5 so one EU size larger in the Maestros is correct. In the 42, my toes were flat but there was a lot heel slippage/farting. In the 41.5 my heel was snug but my toes were too curled to climb cracks, which was suprisingly given the high volume toe box. I really didn't find them more comfortable or less comfortable than the TCs, just different, and the bulky toe was the final deal killer for me.

After being in stock for about a week, a knowlegeable REI employee at the Seattle store said he had yet to find a customer who they fit well enough to purchase.

Doug Hutchinson wrote: I have been using TC Pros since day 1 but don't love them (too narrow, stupid tongue, hurt my heel) and I couldn't wait to get the Maestro Mids and pre-ordered them but ended up returning them.

I am 41.0 relaxed 40.5 peformance in the TC Pros and the equivalent fit in the Maestros was 42.0 and 41.5 so one EU size larger in the Maestros is correct. In the 42, my toes were flat but there was a lot heel slippage/farting. In the 41.5 my heel was snug but my toes were too curled to climb cracks, which was suprisingly given the high volume toe box. I really didn't find them more comfortable or less comfortable than the TCs, just different, and the bulky toe was the final deal killer for me.

After being in stock for about a week, a knowlegeable REI employee at the Seattle store said he had yet to find a customer who they fit well enough to purchase.

The heel of a 41 Mastro Low was so loose I could pull it right off my foot when laced up but my toes were actually curled. The foot upper opening is weirdly big and the tounge really short. I didn’t dig the fit at all but most other Scarpa shoes fit decent and several are amazing. I wear 41-42 Instincts usually, and really tight 41 Boostics for edging. I was hoping the Maestro Low would be like slightly relaxed Katana Lace with more toe room but they are far from it. I’ll stick with Boostics for edging. Also agree with TC Pro narrowness and heel pain, I can’t tolerate wearing them at all.

This is really disappointing. Why is it that NOBODY else is able to make useful a high top shoe - one that has a toe profile at least a little slimmer than a mountaineering boot and can edge on features slightly narrower than a sidewalk?

Seriously, if Scarpa just mimicked the TC pro on their wider last they'd sell a ton of them.

NCD wrote:

The heel of a 41 Mastro Low was so loose I could pull it right off my foot when laced up but my toes were actually curled. The foot upper opening is weirdly big and the tounge really short. I didn’t dig the fit at all but most other Scarpa shoes fit decent and several are amazing. I wear 41-42 Instincts usually, and really tight 41 Boostics for edging. I was hoping the Maestro Low would be like slightly relaxed Katana Lace with more toe room but they are far from it. I’ll stick with Boostics for edging. Also agree with TC Pro narrowness and heel pain, I can’t tolerate wearing them at all.

Well shit, I was hoping for a more relaxed katana lace also. Something that I could jam thin cracks well with flatish toes and still edge (I have to go up in katana laces to jam thumb stacks and then loose edging on face routes a little). I already thought the TC pro was a bulky profile, the mastreo looks ridiculous. 

There is no comparison, the tc pro is in a whole different class than the maestro, the maestro just can't keep up with the tc pro on thin face climbing without excessive downsizing, which ultimately defeats the purpose of an all day shoes. 

Dana,
Have you had success jamming thin cracks with the Maestro Mid?

Check out the Boreal Aces for low top or Boreal Ballet Gold high tops for an all day comfortable crack shoe...they take a little getting used to since they are board lasted. I love mine, you can stand on tiny little edges and jam cracks down to about the red BD. They are not good for sport climbing overhangs and such.

I think John Bachar said it first: "You can climb better if your feet don't hurt"....or something like that.

I've been using the new Maestro for a couple of weeks now and here are some of my thoughts.  I posted this on Supertopo but thought people here might find it interesting as well.  Disclaimer; YMMV.

I went out and specifically did some crack-centric climbs in Eldo this morning with the Maestros (5.10a routes I am very familiar with).  Now I have about 24 pitches of face climbing and 6 pitches of crack climbing on my new Maestros.  In short, I think the Maestros performed poorly in any crack <2" or so.  It felt like I was trying to stuff a lunch box into the crack almost anytime I tried to get weight on my feet in a smaller crack.  Ugh.  My TC's feel pretty good on these same climbs and I'm able to get much more weight on the foot jams and feel more secure.

So, when I got home I decided to do a little test with my ~30 pitch Maestros size 42 and a pretty new pair of TC Pros, size 41.  I put each shoe on my right foot, laced them up and then took height measurements at 3 different spots as measured from the tip of the shoe.  Note the sole thickness for both shoes is virtually the same and I pressed the shoe flat to the surface. Here are the results at .75", 1.25" and 2" from the tip of the shoe:

Maestro: 1.75", 1.88", 2.06"
TC Pro:  1.56", 1.75", 2.13"

As you can see by the measurements, The TC Pro is thinner at the tip but ends up being slightly thicker by the 2" distance, more of a tapered wedge compared to the blockier Maestro.  

I've attached some pics below where you can also see the TC Pro tapers down considerably to the outside edge from the high point where the Maestro is pretty bulky all the way across.  

In summary, I'll keep climbing in the Maestros and see if they start working better in cracks with more break in, but I'm not optimistic.  FYI, I have a medium volume foot, pretty average Brannock device 9.5C.  If people find this useful, I'll post up another update after more use.  Off the cuff, I think Scarpa has missed the boat calling this a high performance trad shoe as crack performance is poor so far.  On the plus side, face climbing does feel pretty good to me on a variety of holds and the shoe is comfortable.  Disclaimer; YMMV ;-)

I loved my Boreal Aces! Best shoe for all day climbing.   There was a funny climbing add years ago with Peter Croft and Dave Schultz set in the Valley.  “Two Jokers and a pair of Aces”.  These shoes used to be worn by advanced climbers in the 80 – 90’s now they sell them as beginner shoes.  Great shoes for all day comfort in shoes that are two sizes too small for feet.  Good edging on granite and they eat up cracks.  No they are not made for overhanging lime stone or steep volcanic rock.  Apparently advanced climbers no longer enjoy moving quickly over long moderate routes (tell that to Peter). Slippers is all they will need for that steep boulder or clip fest. Anyway  thanks for the in-depth shoe review I enjoyed it! It is so rare to see a trad shoe anymore when you hit up a climbing store anymore.  ultimately the best shoe is the one that fits your foot.

mountainhick wrote: I tried them on at Rock and resole yesterday. VERY WIDE and HUGE VOLUME IN FOREFOOT.   They performed on edges by rolling right off. For me, these don't compare to TC pro is any way. Not even close. Might work if your standard shoe fit is a EEEE

NCD wrote:You are being dramatic about the fit

Oh?

mountainhick wrote:
Oh?

I was referring to your EEEE Wide comment. Plenty of people with perfectly normal feet fit in these and other Scarpa shoes. Sounds like you are not familiar with the standard Scarpa fit. Sportivas are very narrow in the toes.  In comparison to other Scarpa shoes the Maestro is actually quite narrow in the toes and too narrow for me and I have a normal size foot. I have never worn or even considered to wear an E or other wide sized shoe in my entire life and my toes were crushed and compressed in these like an aggressive sport climbing shoe. I wear an Instinct VS as my main shoe along with the Boostic, Booster S, Drago and those all fit me just fine with no unnecessary toe narrowness.

NCD wrote:

I was referring to your EEEE Wide comment. Plenty of people with perfectly normal feet fit in these and other Scarpa shoes. Sounds like you are not familiar with the standard Scarpa fit. Sportivas are very narrow in the toes.  In comparison to other Scarpa shoes the Maestro is actually quite narrow in the toes and too narrow for me and I have a normal size foot. I have never worn or even considered to wear an E or other wide sized shoe in my entire life and my toes were crushed and compressed in these like an aggressive sport climbing shoe. I wear an Instinct VS as my main shoe along with the Boostic, Booster S, Drago and those all fit me just fine with no unnecessary toe narrowness.

No.

Every company makes shoes with different lasts. Many sportivas may be narrow overall, but the TC pro is not. I have a wide forefoot but pretty narrow midfoot. The TC pro is wide enough in toe box to accommodate my foot, admittedly with some persuasion involved. No scarpa (except one..) has ever been wide enough in the toe box without having to size up to the point of an extremely sloppy fit. 
Ironically, the scarpa boostic is the only climbing shoe I have ever owned where my big toe is snug against the end, flat AND straight, and the rest of my toes are evenly knuckled. No other shoe ever has ever been able to do a single one of those things, let alone all 3.
What was the "scarpa fit" you were talking about?

rkrum wrote:

No.

Every company makes shoes with different lasts. Many sportivas may be narrow overall, but the TC pro is not. I have a wide forefoot but pretty narrow midfoot. The TC pro is wide enough in toe box to accommodate my foot, admittedly with some persuasion involved. No scarpa (except one..) has ever been wide enough in the toe box without having to size up to the point of an extremely sloppy fit. 
Ironically, the scarpa boostic is the only climbing shoe I have ever owned where my big toe is snug against the end, flat AND straight, and the rest of my toes are evenly knuckled. No other shoe ever has ever been able to do a single one of those things, let alone all 3.
What was the "scarpa fit" you were talking about?

I said toes never last, you read into what I said wrong. No disagreement about the lasts points. Scarpa is known for often a wider fit in the toes or less tapered toe box and sometimes forefoot also depending on model and smaller heel. The Boostic you mention is a perfect example of this and one of my best fitting shoes. Everyone’s experience could be different but this seems to be a trend with their shoes recognized by many people I encounter. I don’t have anything else to say, that’s just what I’ve observed myself.

What do you think I meant to say by last (vs toes)? The width of the toe box is part of the last...

I know people often say scarpas are wider overall and I'd agree. But I disagree with the the statement that that they taper "less" in the toe box. My observation is that scarpas have a longer section of toe box taper in proportion to the overall length of the shoe than other mfg. By comparison, shoes like the TC pro and other sportiva shoes have a more squared off taper, ie a Fred Flintstone sort of toe box.

Because of this longer, more gradual taper, there is less room for toes 3-5 than, say, an equivalently sized tc pro. The TC pro is narrower overall but it keeps the full width of the shoe longer into the toe box before tapering. What I am getting at is while scarpas do tend to fit wider feet better with their typically wider lasts, most of their shoes are comparatively narrower in the toe box for how wide the lasts are through the mid and especially forefoot.

And to take this even further off topic, I cannot understand why more shoes aren't made with a similar shape to the boostic - the medial wall being totally straight has been like finding climbing shoe nirvana for me. It seems a profile like that is a better match for the shape of a human foot vs bending and (eventually) deforming the big toe laterally.

rkrum wrote: And to take this even further off topic, I cannot understand why more shoes aren't made with a similar shape to the boostic - the medial wall being totally straight has been like finding climbing shoe nirvana for me. It seems a profile like that is a better match for the shape of a human foot vs bending and (eventually) deforming the big toe laterally.

What you are referring to is more asymmetry in the toe box. While I agree that would be better, shoes in general aren't made w/ enough asymmetry and people's feet are already deformed before getting into climbing (and also Morton's toe). And then there is the issue that best fitting isn't always synonymous with best performing: less asymmetry actually makes it easier to back step a small foot hold, and crunching all the toes together provide more edging power, etc, etc.