When do you double up protection?

I've been climbing trad for a few years now, but I've always been nervous to push my leading.  I rarely try leading a climb that I have not top-roped before because I don't want to get to an unexpected runout, and I have backed off several do to fear of falling.  I trust my gear, I've hung on it plenty and think I'm pretty good at determining when a piece isn't great to know when to back it up.  And I consciously think about where the route will be going after the piece, how the rope will be running, which way to orient biners, where my hands and feet will be, how much to extend based off route direction and lower terrain, etc.  But I have still struggled to commit to a move I am not 100% confident I can make, even when I have practiced it on top-rope several times.

A couple weeks ago I finally worked up the courage, after several top-rope runs that felt great, to try leading Shadow of a Hangdog.  I got up to the roof just below the crux and stuck in a cam low in the crack and rested on it, while hanging there I decided to go ahead and stick in another cam on the underside of the overhang since my next piece down was a nut in the thinner crack.  I did think about how bomber the cam was that I was hanging from and how the extra cam was probably not necessary, but I knew I didn't need that size cam higher up on the route so I might as well go ahead and stick it in, but I still almost didn't.  I then went for the crux move and took a short expected fall (my first on trad), then rested some more and went for it again and almost grabbed the jug at the top of the crack before my jam slipped.  Next thing I knew I was hanging horizontal on the face by the thin crack with my leg hooked over the rope and my top cam hanging near my tie in.
My only injuries were a scrape on my thumb from where my jam slipped and a pretty good bruise on my thigh from where the rope was, so nothing to even stop me from climbing more that day (I did top-rope the route two more times).  But I keep thinking back to how I almost didn't place that second cam under the roof because I really did not expect that top cam to pull (I'm guessing something with how my leg hooked the rope?).  If I hadn't placed that extra cam I would have added another 8-10 feet to my fall (which with pulling the cam was only 6ish) which would have lead to me hitting a jagged bulge below the thinner crack and very well could have ended my climbing for good.

So.  When looking at a piece that you feel is bomber, when and why do you decide to double up?  Any time you might fall?  Only if the fall would be extra bad if it did pull?  Any time there's a good opportunity?  Or do you just not double up if the first piece is bomber?
(To be clear, I probably feel more confident now about leading trad than before I took those couple of falls.  This isn't a matter of whether or not I should keep leading trad, but when I should be extra careful with pieces that look bomber.)

More gear equals less potential risk but does not eliminate risk all together. Rock type, angle, and conditions will play a part in making a decision in how much gear to place.

An expression I’ve heard often and try to follow is “two between you and the ground.”  In other words, if a piece is keeping you off the deck (and it blowing would cause a ground fall), having at least one more in is generally a good idea.  A good thing to consider is: “what’s gonna happen if that piece blows?”  If the answer is “death” and you can get another piece in...place it.
There are, of course, exceptions, such as linking pitches or running out easy terrain, but if I’m making moves close to my limit or that feel insecure enough that a fall is not unthinkable, I’ll try to have a few pieces in.

Shadow of a hangdog is a basalt splitter. Cams in basalt are not always as bomber as they appear. Protect accordingly. 

• When I'm pyched out about the upcoming section/crux
• After a run out
• Before a run out
• When placing microcams or tiny nuts
• When I'm gripped for no apparent reason

I've adopted some of Arno Ilgner's method by consciously making the decision to transition from rest/assess/shakeout/decision making/gear placing mode to commitment/movement/flow mode. This usually means that I stop before a tricky-looking section, place one piece where I am, then place another as high as I can off my stance (+1 tall guy).

Next I decide what looks like the next rest and whether I will need another piece before then to prevent a bad fall. If no, then I go for it and keep moving until I hit the next rest. If yes, then I climb until I should place gear, then do so. If I'm too pumped to continue, I'll hang. If not, keep going to the next stance.

So when I lower, my route usually has a ton of gear with large-ish gaps where the cruxes are short or even spacing where its more sustained. For what it's worth, I have the opposite approach from OP where I try to on-sight everything I can, unless the gear looks tricky.

Sam Miller wrote:

• When I'm pyched out about the upcoming section/crux
• After a run out
• Before a run out
• When placing microcams or tiny nuts
• When I'm gripped for no apparent reason

Accurate +1 "gripped for no apparent reason"  Haha we can all relate

Sam Miller wrote:

• When I'm gripped for no apparent reason

I definitely seem to do that a lot on high gravity days. 

Also when you're getting scared and you want to double up on gear, are you concerned about the gear ripping out or are you concerned about the consequences should the rope come unclipped or the rope end biner fail for some reason? If you're only concerned about the connection between gear and rope, consider using opposite and opposed biners or a locker on the rope end and possibly on the gear end if the biner sits kinda funky.

Every now and then you'll come across a placement where one of the carabiners sits funky and either gets loaded over an edge or where the rock pushes the gate open. A spare locker is great and can sometimes give you roids for your mental game.

I'll double up when I think that adding a second piece meaningfully reduces the likelihood of a damaging fall. This can be because of sustained sections of marginal gear, possibility of ledge fall, distance to previous pro, etc. There isn't any hard and fast rule..

Total aside, are you sure endlessly TRing routes is helpful? It sounds like your challenges lie mostly in managing/placing gear, rather than learning a route on TR.

Brady3 wrote: A couple weeks ago I finally worked up the courage, after several top-rope runs that felt great, to try leading Shadow of a Hangdog.  I got up to the roof just below the crux and stuck in a cam low in the crack and rested on it, while hanging there I decided to go ahead and stick in another cam on the underside of the overhang since my next piece down was a nut in the thinner crack.  I did think about how bomber the cam was that I was hanging from and how the extra cam was probably not necessary, but I knew I didn't need that size cam higher up on the route so I might as well go ahead and stick it in, but I still almost didn't.  I then went for the crux move and took a short expected fall (my first on trad), then rested some more and went for it again and almost grabbed the jug at the top of the crack before my jam slipped.  Next thing I knew I was hanging horizontal on the face by the thin crack with my leg hooked over the rope and my top cam hanging near my tie in.

Skipping the afraid of falling part, this is a classic case of sprad climbing (sport climbing on gear) and not rechecking/resetting placements after resting on them. Resting on trad gear is a bad idea and worse habit to get into; trad gear isn't bolts. But if you are going to do it, then each and every time you unweight a piece to climb again after resting you need to recheck and possibly reset it before climbing past it. This is one of the main ways folks crossing over from sport get hurt in trad climbing.

As far as when to double up goes, sounds like you made the right call and there's plenty of good advice in some of the other posts in this thread.

If you have fallen, inspect the piece you fell on and possibly back-up.  Especially with repeat falls.

If you're hanging (as you were), it's good practice to inspect the piece you're hanging on and possibly back-up.

Bottom line, place good gear.  I fall, a lot.  In an almost 20 year climbing career, I can count the number of failed pieces on one hand.  I remember each occurance and reason for failure.  Chances are, your piece failed due to pilot error.

@rkrum
Am I sure that endlessly top roping routes is better? No, I'm trying to get away from it.  And really I think I have the strength and technique to climb harder (this was my first attempt at leading a 10), but I just mentally can't make myself do it.  I'm just uncomfortable with falling in general, even on sport, so I'm trying to make myself take more falls on the overhanging gym routes when I go.
That being said, my "short expected fall" was me just letting go because I knew I wouldn't make the move and down climbing back below the piece to hang was probably going to be harder, so I think that shows improvement there.

To those that are suggesting the piece pulled do to my error, I'm sure that's true.  While I try to look at all the ways things interact, I'm not perfect.  I should have put that cam a couple inches higher in the crack because there's the possibility that my foot kicked the stem as my foot cam out and caused the cam to rotate a little before the rope went taut.  The stem was poking down by where my foot was going to be, but it was to the right side of a left foot jam so I figured it would be less in the way and I was mis-remembering where I needed to put my hand above the cam.  And I did not recheck the cam after the first fall and that was the first thing I thought of once I got down, I know I should have.

I don't really understand the story of your fall, and how it relates to your question.  Sounds like you were sewing it up, hung/fell, the gear held (except one on the second attempt), but your fall was safe and short because you had sewn it up.  

My thoughts:
- You weren't "doubled up".   The top-most cam you placed was not tied together, or in any way working with, the one next to it.   They weren't reinforcing each other in any way.
- There's nothing wrong with plugging a bunch of cams at a crux if you are scared.  It might help mitigate the fall factor.
- Often I do actually double-up pro, by connecting two pieces into one unit, kinda like an anchor.  Maybe before a crux, above a long run out, or as my first placement on the pitch.   You will need a good stance to do this though, because connecting two pieces is somewhat intricate and may require two hands.  

Russ

Brady3 wrote: @rkrum
Am I sure that endlessly top roping routes is better? No, I'm trying to get away from it.  And really I think I have the strength and technique to climb harder (this was my first attempt at leading a 10), but I just mentally can't make myself do it.  I'm just uncomfortable with falling in general, even on sport, so I'm trying to make myself take more falls on the overhanging gym routes when I go.
That being said, my "short expected fall" was me just letting go because I knew I wouldn't make the move and down climbing back below the piece to hang was probably going to be harder, so I think that shows improvement there.

That's sorta what I am getting at. I am not convinced that top roping is helpful for overcoming a mental block when it comes to leading on gear - akin to learning to how to ride a bike so you can learn to skateboard. Just my 2c.

Logging the mileage both following harder routes and leading easier ones is a much more effective learning tool imo. As Healyje pointed out, there isn't always a direct crossover between working a sport route and not dying or getting fucked up on a hard trad route...

rkrum wrote:

That's sorta what I am getting at. I am not convinced that top roping is helpful for overcoming a mental block when it comes to leading on gear - akin to learning to how to ride a bike so you can learn to skateboard. Just my 2c.

Logging the mileage both following harder routes and leading easier ones is a much more effective learning tool imo. As Healyje pointed out, there isn't always a direct crossover between working a sport route and not dying or getting fucked up on a hard trad route...

I agree that top roping is not helpful for overcoming the mental block, but for my situation it is either that or just sport climb.  With my group of climbing partners there's only one other guy that leads trad and I lead harder trad than he does, he's more focusing on leading harder sport at the moment.  So I can't really follow harder climbs, and with always having to go places with sport I'm limited to a smaller number of easier climbs, so those get boring after awhile.  I know there are better ways of working up to climbing harder routes and feeling more comfortable attempting an onsite, but with leading the hardest trad in my group those other methods just aren't as readily available.
Again, I think my mental block is from a fear of falling.  And that is not a fear of falling on good trad gear, it's a fear of falling in general.  So taking falls on sport will help with that, it may not be a direct crossover, but it's better than nothing.

Healyje wrote: Skipping the afraid of falling part, this is a classic case of sprad climbing (sport climbing on gear) and not rechecking/resetting placements after resting on them. Resting on trad gear is a bad idea and worse habit to get into; trad gear isn't bolts. But if you are going to do it, then each and every time you unweight a piece to climb again after resting you need to recheck and possibly reset it before climbing past it. This is one of the main ways folks crossing over from sport get hurt in trad climbing.

As far as when to double up goes, sounds like you made the right call and there's plenty of good advice in some of the other posts in this thread.

"Sprad" is suspected to be the cause of a fatal accident at an old crag I used to climb at a lot (like basalt, cams can be tricky at this place). I've had a biner fail on a big whip, it was laying weird, fortunately I had doubled up, as I do quite often now when I can.

Brady3 wrote:

I agree that top roping is not helpful for overcoming the mental block, but for my situation it is either that or just sport climb.  With my group of climbing partners there's only one other guy that leads trad and I lead harder trad than he does, he's more focusing on leading harder sport at the moment.  So I can't really follow harder climbs, and with always having to go places with sport I'm limited to a smaller number of easier climbs, so those get boring after awhile.  I know there are better ways of working up to climbing harder routes and feeling more comfortable attempting an onsite, but with leading the hardest trad in my group those other methods just aren't as readily available.
Again, I think my mental block is from a fear of falling.  And that is not a fear of falling on good trad gear, it's a fear of falling in general.  So taking falls on sport will help with that, it may not be a direct crossover, but it's better than nothing.

The problem is that the mental game for trad is different than sport.  With sport, you’re almost always safe (as long as you have a solid belay, stick clip and don’t do something stupid like backstep or blow a clip), so the mental game is about overcoming irrational fears and being willing to make moves with the possibility of big falls.

With trad, there are times when you are not safe and falls would be very dangerous/fatal.  Climbing through that means essentially accepting the real risk of injury/death and keeping a cool head because your life literally depends on your ability to not fall.  I find this actually hurts my sport lead head sometimes, because you have to be able to switch between “safe” and “not safe” modes of thinking.

Ted Pinson wrote:

The problem is that the mental game for trad is different than sport.  With sport, you’re almost always safe (as long as you have a solid belay, stick clip and don’t do something stupid like backstep or blow a clip), so the mental game is about overcoming irrational fears and being willing to make moves with the possibility of big falls.

With trad, there are times when you are not safe and falls would be very dangerous/fatal.  Climbing through that means essentially accepting the real risk of injury/death and keeping a cool head because your life literally depends on your ability to not fall.  I find this actually hurts my sport lead head sometimes, because you have to be able to switch between “safe” and “not safe” modes of thinking.

Good thoughts Ted. But, it's all not safe.....that's why we started doing it. 

As for the route the OP is talking about if you look at the pic of the woman leading the pro is obvious.

"Doubling up" is an interesting notion too. You can use more (or less) pro more is better........

To the OP heed Joe's words, hanging your way up something on trad gear is a good way to get hurt.

To the OP heed Joe's words, hanging your way up something on trad gear is a good way to get hurt.

It is also a great way to get to the top of El Cap,. If one wants to increase their proficiency at placing good gear and trusting it. Aid climbing is the answer. 

That’s not at all what he was referring to.

I learned to place gear by aiding routes and leading easy routes I had already top roped countless times. Also, hanging around at the base of top ropes and waiting my turn I would "Place and Yank". I don't know what caused your piece to fail, but the fact that it was backed up shows you are thinking. You need to figure out why it failed. Just my two cents worth.