How much do shoes matter?

How much do shoes matter? I climb in La Sportiva Finales.

I've been climbing for a little over a year. I had to take roughly 2-3 months off as a sympathetic partner to my girlfriend who broke her ankle in December (2017). I've been working on 5.11s for a month or so and completed one without coming off the wall yesterday.

There are 4 people in my climbing "squad." We're all around the same skill level. Two of them have upgraded to more aggressive shoes (So Ill LV and La Sportiva Miura). I'm the first to be hitting these 5.11 routes, but probably rocking the most basic shoes.

I come from a distance cycling background where the common answer is always, "It's not about the bike." Meaning, if you want to be a better cyclist you have to put in the hours and do the training. I'm assuming with climbing it's the same, right? If I can save money and wear these Finales until they die and just replace with more Finales I'll be happy. But if upgrading to more aggressive shoes is a must to continue leveling up on routes...?

Climbing shoes are different than road bikes. Technique does not change notably with a carbon bike versus a cheap aluminum frame. But you do use your feet differently with a downturned performance shoe versus a basic beginner shoe. Using performance shoes will not make you a better climber overnight, but it is one piece (of many) in developing more advanced footwork.

A good rule of thumb is to get a beginner shoe for your first shoe, but then upgrade to a mid-level shoe once you wear through the first pair. No need to buy new shoes immediately, but upgrade once the Finales wear out. If the Finales fit you well, the Miura Lace has a similar fit but performs better.

Getting into harder climbs, especially outdoors, will require shoes with decent toes, edges and heels. For example using my old shoes, l cannot perform a certain heel hook required for a particular problem at my gym. But using my newer shoes, which have a better heel, l can do the move.

As you move past 5.11 you'll see that good shoes are important. Moves should be easier in better shoes. 

Also, if you upgrade, you may find that issues with your shoes that you took for granted are eliminated with better shoes. 

40+ years ago John Long uttered his famous "It's not about the shoes" Smack down on the cam 4 boulders.  go to almost any gym and you'll see some old fart cruising 13's in Mythos.  That said its going to be easier climbing plastic with shoes with an aggressive downturn.  Just like its going to be easier climbing hand/fist cracks with some stiff, flat board lasted shoe.

Eric Engberg wrote: go to almost any gym and you'll see some old fart cruising 13's in Mythos.

I call BS. I've seen plenty of older climbers cruising up 13s in the gym; they've all wised up to better footwear.

I would not replace your shoes right this moment, if they aren't worn out yet. but when they do wear out, I would look at other shoes.

It is not about the shoes (thought experiment: Margo Hayes or Kai Lightner is visiting your home town, and wants to check out the local gym. S/he makes a mistake of forgetting climbing shoes at home, but s/he is at the gym already, might as well make the best of it... so s/he asks for a pair of rental shoes... and crushes your 5.11, then your buddy's 5.12, then his buddy's 5.13...).

But at the same time, shoes DO matter. You will find that, at YOUR level, you are able to do a heel hook slightly better in certain shoes, you can edge slightly better in certain shoes, you feel more confident on overhanging climb in certain shoes. We are not talking about switching shoes and rocketing up to 5.12 from your current 5.11. We are talking about a certain 5.11b where your foot always seems to skate off the sleek small foothold when you wear your old loose worn-out shoes, but put on a new pair of edging shoes, and your foot feels like is sticks to the wall.

The real question is why does someone have to take 2-3 months off out of sympathy!!! 

What kind of shoe you climb in matters less than the fit of the shoe.  As long as your toes aren't floppy it doesn't matter yet for you.  

As you develop as a climber and think about your shoes find out which company's build works best for you.  Some climbers have a 5.10 foot while others (me) have a LaSportiva foot, or another companies' last may work better.  

Shoes won't make you a better climber. They WILL make you better able to take advantage of the ability you have. In this way it's almost exactly like your road biking analogy. You can put me on the newest, fanciest bike and it won't make me a Tour de France rider. But it will make me perform better than on my rusty beach cruiser.

I'm assuming you are talking about the gym in your first post. In that case, as you move into the 5.11s a better shoe will certainly improve your experience. I wouldn't go for a super downturned shoe but, rather, something moderately downturned. At that level of climbing you're working on precise edging and proper use of frontside and outside edges. As you start moving into real overhanging climbing is when the super downturned shoes really help.

Just to illustrate, this is my current shoe quiver:

Outside all-day trad climbing: Evolv Astroman (high top, flat lasted, super comfy, smears well on granite, good in cracks.)

Easy gym climbs (for me that means vertical or slightly overhanging stuff up to about 5.11b-c): Evolv Luchador. That's what I mean by a moderately downturned shoe. I also sometimes use these for shorter outdoor sport climbing missions.

For harder stuff (really overhanging climbs and bouldering): Evolv Shamans. They're really downturned and GREAT for proper footwork on a roof or overhang. Would be totally inappropriate, though, on a J-tree slab or something like that. 

indeed... the majority of shoes are good enough these days that  Perfect-footmolding-fit is on the whole more important than how-downturned-can-you-go

though you might want to look for a shoe that has a bit more of a flat/straight inside edge than the finale which is farily curved...

also you might want to define "levelling up on routes"
you're not going to want to go for the same kind of shoe if your goal is "to climb the worst .14 slab imaginable" or "to boulder more overhung than anyone has overhung before"

Eric Engberg wrote: 40+ years ago John Long uttered his famous "It's not about the shoes" Smack down on the camp 4 boulders.  go to almost any gym and you'll see some old fart cruising 13's in Mythos.  That said its going to be easier climbing plastic with shoes with an aggressive downturn.  Just like its going to be easier climbing hand/fist cracks with some stiff, flat board lasted shoe.

reboot wrote:

I call BS. I've seen plenty of older climbers cruising up 13s in the gym; they've all wised up to better footwear.

Actually it is both. Last winter I was in the gym wearing a pair of totally blown out shoes. While warming up on a V4, a kid commented that he was surprised I could climb in them. I looked at him and said "It is not shoes." It wasn't, it was technique, decades of technique. That said, the right shoes do help. With so much of gym climbing being overhanging having a bit of down turn does help.

For the new climber. Get a good fitting shoe and go work on your technique. That will take you far further than some aggressive downturned shoe.

Eric Engberg wrote: 40+ years ago John Long uttered his famous "It's not about the shoes" Smack down on the cam 4 boulders.  go to almost any gym and you'll see some old fart cruising 13's in Mythos.  That said its going to be easier climbing plastic with shoes with an aggressive downturn.  Just like its going to be easier climbing hand/fist cracks with some stiff, flat board lasted shoe.

40+ years ago that was true. But I also know that John isn't wearing the same shoes he was back then:)

Shoes are extremely important in the sense that if you don't have the right shoe for your foot shape and the climbing style - you will be in a world of hurt. Try climbing anything in an ill-fitting shoe. Not fun.  

I know that wasn't your precise question, but it's relevant. Also, as others have said, certain shoe designs really can help boost your ability to execute certain techniques and experience of (or lack of) pain --among other things-- on certain routes. I would agree with Eric D in that if you have a well-fitting basic shoe in your first 2-4 years, you are unlikely to need a major upgrade for a while. I often see new climbers with poor footwork wearing $150+ shoes. They are basically flushing money down the drain in my opinion.  

Eric Engberg wrote: 40+ years ago John Long uttered his famous "It's not about the shoes" Smack down on the cam 4 boulders.  

40 years ago EB was the best thing going, Fires and sticky rubber weren't out until the mid 80s. So when your options are all shit of course it doesn't matter what shoe you're wearing. 

Newsflash, it's no longer the mid 70s and we actually have excellently crafted shoes, so you can actually pick a shoe that fits your foot properly in a design that does help for the type of climbing you're doing. 

Finales are a great shoe. It's not necessarily about the grade you're going to climb in them, but more of what the shoe is good at doing. The gym is no doubt going to be easier with some downturn in the toes. Your finales are best for cracks, hard slabs, and alpine rock.

I once watched guy free solo up a 5.11 route and down another 5.11 route in cowboy boots.   I imagine he was showing off to the visiting climbers and I was impressed.  Cowboy boots are slick soled.  

As far as "Is it the shoes or the climber?".    What is your problem area?  Are your feet coming off all the time or are your hand and arms not strong enough for the moves.   Feet coming off could be shoes or footwork.   My problem is that I don't train enough and my hand and arms are not strong enough.   More training would do me more good than better shoes.

Eli wrote: Finales are a great shoe. It's not necessarily about the grade you're going to climb in them, but more of what the shoe is good at doing. The gym is no doubt going to be easier with some downturn in the toes. Your finales are best for cracks, hard slabs, and alpine rock.

I got some finales last year and they are working really well (cracks, slabs, and some decent edging when new/tight).

You say that you are a cyclist, so look at it this way. You wouldn't do a road race on a commuter, commute on a TT bike, or ride a TT on a mountain bike, right?  A few years back I brought a cyclocross bike to an off-road stage race for the hill climb stage, and took that stage by more than 2 minutes over stronger riders who were on mountain bikes. It is the same idea with climbing shoes. However, you wouldn't want to go to a road race on an ill fitting $10,000 Colnago, right?

Thom, I see that you're in Columbus. I assume that during the week you're pulling plastic and on the weekends you're likely heading to the New or the Red. For gym climbing, stick with your Finales until you get sick of them or a good deal rolls around. In a gym setting your technique will usually trump your shoe's abilities. Success in the gym generally comes down to having good technique rather than the stickiest rubber or the most talon-like toe. There are certain routes/problems built around a single, specific technique but those shouldn't be a focus to progress your own climbing.

When climbing outdoors I have found that a certain shoe really does make a difference, imagined or not. Again, technique makes the biggest difference but your shoe can give you an edge. Assuming you are climbing at the Red or the New you will have very different needs at each crag. You're working moderates so anything with an aggressive toe and some sensitivity could take you far at the New or the Red. The New demands precise edging and technical skill whereas the Red is more overhanging and requires core strength and forearm endurance to manage the pumpy style. I've used the Scarpa Instinct for both styles and found it performs as a good all-arounder. 

As a beginner I noticed a couple of things upgrading from poorly fitting (started out great but stretched to sloppy) but highly touted beginner shoes, La Sportiva Tarantulace to much better fitting, intermediate shoes, 5.10 Anasazi Pinks.

1) I climb better.

2) I have a much better understanding of where my toe and foot is positioned as I'm climbing.

For me, it's worth buying a more expensive pair of shoes (although the beauty of the internet is finding expensive things at a much discounted rate, ie.. my pinks only set me back $80) that I'll surely beat up pretty quickly to have a better fit, a better feel for my toe and foot positioning and more confidence climbing harder routes.

How much difference the actual shoe makes at this point is probably minimal. The fact that it fits incredibly well and gives me a confidence boost, however, is something I find well worth the extra money.

In short, don't let other people tell you what shoes you should and should not wear at your level of climbing. Budget out how much you're willing to spend in a year on climbing shoes and find the most comfortable pair that encourage good technique for you. It's unlikely your shoe's technical ability is holding you back; it's comfort and your confidence in it could be.

Jeffrey K wrote: highly touted beginner shoes, La Sportiva Tarantulace

ha