PBUS vs PBAS belay technique

There are discussions of PBUS vs slap/slide technique for top rope belays, but I can't find anything about my preferred technique, which is NOT PBUS, but which strikes me as The Best Way (described for right-handed belayer)

P and B happen as before: Pull in slack, Brake with right hand. Then grab brake strand with LEFT hand ABOVE the right hand. Then MOVE (not slide) right hand over your left hand to a comfortable position closer to the belay device. 

The main advantage is that you can take in a large amount of slack quickly -- doing this with PBUS requires bending over like an idiot if you've pulled in a bunch of slack, since you need to reach below the right hand. Or you need to do seven micro takes.

I don't see any real disadvantages -- yes, your right brake hand leaves the brake strand. But only when you're firmly gripping it with your left hand. And the time saved with faster taking in slack means you spend more time in brake position, less time messing with hand slides.

Ok, mountain project, tell me I'm gonna die.

Ur gonna die. And hopefully you do so that we don't have to argue about stuff like this - just kidding. 

Anyways, ever tried switching up your brake hand? All with your non-dominant hand? How about doing every other pull with different hands? I do these sometimes when my bad shoulder is feeling sore. And yes, everyone sometimes does the grab above technique instead of slide technique sometimes. I mean for goodness sake we are talking about top-rope belaying...it aint rocket science. 

Mark wrote:

There are discussions of PBUS vs slap/slide technique for top rope belays, but I can't find anything about my preferred technique, which is NOT PBUS, but which strikes me as The Best Way (described for right-handed belayer)

P and B happen as before: Pull in slack, Brake with right hand. Then grab brake strand with LEFT hand ABOVE the right hand. Then MOVE (not slide) right hand over your left hand to a comfortable position closer to the belay device. 

The main advantage is that you can take in a large amount of slack quickly -- doing this with PBUS requires bending over like an idiot if you've pulled in a bunch of slack, since you need to reach below the right hand. Or you need to do seven micro takes.

I don't see any real disadvantages -- yes, your right brake hand leaves the brake strand. But only when you're firmly gripping it with your left hand. And the time saved with faster taking in slack means you spend more time in brake position, less time messing with hand slides.

Ok, mountain project, tell me I'm gonna die.

Your method is fine.

It is discussed in this video as the "Hand over hand" method:

One option - don't bend over.  Just bring your right hand (still holding the brake strand) up underneath your belay device, then put your left hand "under" aka behind your right hand, and slide the right hand up along the brake strand.

You don't need to keep the belay tight.  You're not trying to haul your climber up (I hope).  And because your hand is underneath the belay device, it is still in a position where you can brake effectively.  You might have some rope slippage, but it's not going to cause your climber to deck, and if it did, you're probably cutting it too close anyways.

The main issue with PBAS is that your brake hand leaves the brake strand.  Yes, you're switching brake hands, but you (and your climber) must then have the confidence that you will ensure/guarantee that your other hand is on the rope before your first hand leaves the rope.  That's why PBUS is a little better - the one ring (made by your thumb and index finger) that must not open will always stay on the rope.

Edit: This is not to say PBAS is not okay, you and your climber just both need to be aware of the risks and you should both acknowledge them.  To do otherwise would be unethical and unsafe.

It’s good. Just scary to watch new climbers repeatedly let go of the brake hand and fumble grabbing it again.

I'll stick with PEMDAS, thanks

Your method is called hand-over-hand belay. And it is fine.

it is not a preferred way that gym teach. PBUS emphasized THE brake hand on the rope-- always the same one. Hand-over-hand uses A brake hand on the rope, either right or left.

There are advantages to hand-over-hand technique. In particular, it works better to minimize the slack in the system when the climber is moving really fast.

I see that several people said the same thing in time it took me to type. :)

Just to add, one the of advantages of PBUS over hand-over-hand method is that it is theoretically easier to transition into lead belay mode when you learn to always have ONE hand on the rope, because with lead belay you generally have one hand feeding out slack, and the other one being the brake hand.

I have no problem lead belaying with only ONE hand being the brake hand, and then switching to hand-over-hand for toprope belay, but some new lead belayers who are used to belaying on toprope could theoretically get confused... So effort must be made to minimize such confusion. Of course, the history has shown time and time again that idiot-proofing any technique or device doesn't work, because idiots are way too ingenious... but it doesn't stop people from trying.

Actually there is even more efficient way, kills 100% climbers, 0% of the time.

Goes like this -

- Pull, brake with Right, Right is low on the brake side.
- Put Left on the brake side, over Right, just below belay device
- Put Right on climber's end high above belay device
- Get ready for the next belay stroke, this time you pull with Right, brake with Left.

IIRC it is in the AMGA manual.

I don´t even know what all those letters mean, I just belay somehow.

Jim Titt wrote:

I don´t even know what all those letters mean, I just belay somehow.

+1

Honestly I just slide my brake hand loosely up the rope, keeping other hand on the climbers end. You never let go of the brake strand, just loosen the grip. 

Jim Titt wrote:

I don´t even know what all those letters mean, I just belay somehow.

I don't know what all those letters mean either. But . . . 

I tried the original poster Mark's "hand over hand" idea this afternoon for the first time, and I liked it a lot.

Definitely better than the "somehow" approach I was using before.

Ken

P.S. So next I want to try the alternating-sides hand-over-hand method suggested by amarius.

Thread drift: what's up with the fancy underhanded method? I feel like I see the old timers use it...

The safest belay technique is the one that the belayer can perform the best.

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty details, I suspect that PBAS slower when it comes to building muscle memory and ingraining reflexes such as moving the brake hand down and to the hip when the rope is weighted (ie in a fall). These reflexes and muscle memory are far more important to me than this or that specific belay techniques. 

I belay using PBR sometimes. Am I gonna die?

MyFeetHurt wrote: I belay using PBR sometimes. Am I gonna die?

YGD because that shit is nasty.

eli poss wrote:

YGD because that shit is nasty.

Try this:

Either way, ICPP.

Nice to see the absence of an outraged chorus insisting on their own one true way.  Maybe that's still on the way...

The hand-over hand method seems, from what I've seen, to be the usual method in the UK.

Nathan summarized it best.

If your beef with the acronym method is that you have to bend wayyy over, refine your technique. Take slack and simply bring brake hand back to the “home base” position (or whatever you want to call it) below the belay device without bending over (should be a comfortable, upright position with brake hand barely beneath belay device). Grab rope beneath brake hand with opposite hand and pull to slide the rope thru brake hand to remove slack between brake and and belay device. Repeat.

And if you didn’t read what’s written in the parentheses first, your PEMDAS technique is all screwy

Either way is fine. I like and prefer both of those methods over the old slip slap and slide. I feel they are safer and more secure. If you are bending over while using the PBUS method, someone likely didn't teach you properly or you forgot some details of it. After you've pulled and brake hand is down, bring the brake hand up slightly but not above the belay device, then twist your brake hand so the rope pile side of the rope is towards your other hand. Other hand grabs the brake strand so the brake hand can slide back up it. No bending over required.