Mountaineering Tent Advice (HMG Ultramid 4 vs Hilleberg Jannu)

Personal Background:

I'm looking to invest in a 4 season tent that will last a long time and provide versatility to use mountaineering to car camping and backpacking.  My top contenders are the Hyperlite Mountain Gear Ultramid 2 or 4 person pyramid tent or the Hilleberg Jannu 2 person tent.  I've gone through all the top review sites and narrowed down to HMG & Hilleberg for the following priorities in descending order from versatility, weight, 4 season strength, quality, ease of setup and space.  These two tents made the top my of list because of their strong design to shed wind and snow as well as versatility for pitching.  I like the idea of the pyramid tent due to it weighing around a pound, depending on the size (2 vs 4), which is light enough to use backpacking and capable of use in the mountains but I've never used a floor less tent before and have some reservations.  I currently live in TX and spend most of my camping time in the surrounding bug infested areas extending to Austin, OK & AR. With respect to mountaineering use, my intended use is for spring-fall mountaineering trips to PNW (Baker, Ranier, etc.) and occasional bigger objectives in Mexico (Orizaba, Itza), South America or Kilimanjaro.  I'd like to be able to use the tent on backpacking trips to get more use out of the tent and justify the upfront cost.  Below are a few questions that I'm struggling with to make up my decision. 

Hyperlite Mountain Gear Ultramid

Planned Setup:

3 Season: Buy cheap lightweight ground cloth and eventually invest in bug net if I find it's need.  Use as group shelter on backpacking trips

Mountaineering: normal pitch without inner tent

Questions:

• How well does the Ultramid hold up on mountains at an upper camp in preparation for a summit push that might be more wind exposed?  Would the Jannu be a better option here or can I get by with the Ultramid and save a lot of weight?
• Most of my camping use to date has been individual climbing/ backpacking trips but I want to spend more time in the mountains where sharing tent is more efficient.   Would you recommend the 2 or 4 person tent as the added weight from the larger tent seems minimal relative to how much extra area and versatility the larger tent brings?  Link to a great review of the Ultramid that is steering me towards the 4 person despite my normal 1-2 person use.  
• For owners of the Ultramid 4, how problematic is finding a camp site due to the large footprint on mountains (CO, CA, PNW, etc...) or when using backpacking?  Would you rather have the smaller Ultramid 2 footprint?
• What is everyone's experience using the Ultramid in buggy areas? Do you use the bug net or carry a bivy?  Is a full bug net with bathtub necessary to minimize ants and other insects when camping in the south?

Hilleberg Jannu

Planned Setup:

• 3 Season Car Camping: Full tent with inner bug netting (weight is not a concern)
• 3 Season Backpacking: Depending on level of bugs and time of year, leave inner tent at home and travel only with the rain fly.  Possibly invest in UL bug bivy to couple with the rain fly,
• Mountaineering: Leave inner tent at home and bring a UL ground cloth

Questions:

• Is the idea of leaving the inner Hilleberg tent at home for use on a mountain a terrible idea (waiting for response from Hilleberg on weight savings of pitching in this setup)?  If so, why is this a bad idea and what benefits do the inner tent provide when camped on a mountain?
• How well does the tent work when pitched without the inner tent?  Is it still livable if pitched without the inner tent on a exposed glacier to save weight or does too much wind get under the fly?

Any general recommendations between the two tents or other options  based on my priorities to consider that I may have missed?

For anyone who made it this far, thank you for your interest and help if you have any feedback to provide.  I am just starting out in mountaineering and haven't found too many people in the DFW area to bounce ideas off.  

Thanks,

Stephen

Haven't used HMG's version, but in my experience, the Mid is not a choice when wind is a concern. 

Agree mids suck in the wind. Workable with a single night above the tree line with a good forecast or if the snow is soft enough that you can dig way down but really mids are best below the tree line. 

The hilleberg without the inner is workable but weight savings is pretty minimal although you get a ton more room which may let u squeeze another person or 2 in effectively shaving more weight. Definitely less wind proof and warm this way though but burying the edges should seal well I think. 

I've got a silnylon two person mid (with perimeter netting and a clip on bathtub floor) and have used a Jannu. 

Mids are great in the wind and are quite spacious for the weight. They are quite popular in expeditions to cold and snowy places. 

They take longer to set up than a tent, but are able to shed wind from all sides.

Bug protection is fine with an inner/mesh perimeter. A bathtub floor is nice depending on your comfort around insects. I've used mine in the wet tropics with no issues except for a few persistent crustaceans. Being able to pitch high for ventilation during rain and cook inside is nice. 

I haven't had any issues finding a spot to pitch it.

The Jannu is heavy but quite bomb proof. 

Setting it up takes a little longer than the average tent but is a bit faster than a mid.

I've got nothing bad to say about it except that it's heavy and I'll always take a weight saving unless someone else carries it. 

It's not so breathable in warm environs but on par with a well dug in mid for snow camping. 

I'd recommend the mid purely because it's lighter and fills the same function as the Jannu but is a tad more versatile. Both are pricey high end options that perhaps may be swapped with cheaper alternatives, especially for a beginner mountaineer, such as a MH Trango or a silnylon version of a mid.

Neither of these should be a consideration for car camping. Just get a cheap Coleman or something for that. 

I have a Jannu and a MLD supermid. I have an HMG tarp too.

I'd suggest you add MLD mld silnylon (and CF) mids into the equation, too.

You haven't mentioned number of people, if its mostly solo then duomids are rather well regarded for a reason.

Jannu is extremely heavy compared to a 2 person CF mid (which from MLD is 400g). But it sure is comfortable.

Not all mid style shelters are equal in wind, obviously the small and lower profile the better they handle, the (5 sided) trailstar is said to be quite good in that respect though I haven't used one personally, then there's fabric choice, from as light as 0.5 CF to as heavy as silnylon.

An HMG ultramid 4 is $865. A Jannu is $975. With this kind of money being spent and such wildly different usage cases (car camping *and* mountaineering!) I'd go with 2 shelters, all the options are different compromises, not all compromises suit all situations.

For instance, a MHW Direkt 2 (1.49kg) is $550, and a 4 person silnylon supermid (740g) is $385 which gives a lot of flexibility.

(I think mids and tarps are great for car camping, no sewn in floors to get trashed :)

Pyramid Stability

For those who questioned the stability of pyramid tents is that based on designs with (HMG) or without (BD) side tie outs?  The Ultramids have four tie outs which coupled with the cuben fiber material are what sets them apart and from what I read enables them to be pitched in the mountains.

Remaining Questions:

1. Does anyone have practical experience with the Ultamids in the mountains supporting how much of a beating they can really take from the wind if pitched properly?  I found an image I copied below from a backcountry review that seems to suggest they are pretty sturdy if the individual chose to pitch them on a ridge line.

Image taken from backcountry.com review of the ultramid 2 by Conor H.

2. Would you recommend a two person or four person size as the weight difference is relatively minimal at 118 g?  Concern was if I get the 4 person tent it would be hard to find a place to pitch given its size. The four person tent is 9.25 feet in length and width which is larger than your typical camp site.

Jannu Removal of Inner Tent Space & Weight Update

Weight Savings

Hilleberg sales rep responded to my question about weight of the outer tent.

Outer tent with guylines and vent cover = 1,219 g or  43.0 oz

3 Poles with repair section                      =   192 g or   6.8 oz

Total Weight (minus stakes)                    = 1,411 g or 49.8 oz (3.1 lbs)

Space Increase

Based on the schematic provided on Hilleberg's website and webplotdigitizer app, I estimated the removal of the inner tent would add up to 8 inches in width, 5 inches in length and 4 inches in height.  Approximate sleeping area increased from 34.4 to 39.7 ft2.  For comparison the Ultramid 2 has an internal area of 61.7 ft2 and the four person is 85.6 ft2.

Conclusion:

While significantly lighter than the full weight of the Jannu at 3,200 g (7 lbs), the 1,400 g associated with the outer structure is still relatively heavy when compared to the ultramid 2 (539 g) or 4 (657 g) options to sku my preference towards the Ultramid.  To help illustrate the difference I calculated the ounce weight per square foot of floor space for each setup in the table below.  The Ultamids are about 0.3 oz per square foot while the Jannu outer tent is 1.2 oz per square foot.  Calculations for the Ultamids exclude the weight of trekking poles because I don't consider them added weight since they are multipurpose and would be taken to base camp anyways.  I am leaning towards the ultramids if they will work well in the wind.  

Thanks for the input so far.  Interested in hearing if anyone has experience with the ultramids in the mountains.

Steve

The Hilleberg Jannu is probably the better contender if you are trying to do a all-around tent.  The HMG would not be very appropriate on bigger mountains.  I've actually seen one being used at the Alpamayo BC, and it was not at all apparently worthy of moving any higher.  Maybe as an emergency tent or a ultra-ultralight tent, but I wouldn't want that to be my primary plan.  It also looked like it sucked as a basecamp tent.  They seem to be for a very specific use. (And this was not that use.)  From their website descriptions, it looks like they market the tent as a backpacking tent rather than a mountaineering tent. I'd be okay taking one on Baker or Rainier if the weather looked really good, but it would be far from my first choice.

If you want an ultralight tent for higher altitude mountaineering, go for something along the design of the Direkt2.  For anywhere where it may rain, you will probably prefer something like the Hilleberg Jannu.  

For PNW summers, I usually just choose to not climb on days where the forecast predicts rain and will mostly use the Direkt2 for the season.  For Kilimanjaro, the Jannu would be great while the Direkt2 would be inappropriate.  (I actually slept in a Jannu on Kili.)   I've never climbed in Mexico, so I can't say anything about that - I'd guess the Jannu though.  For Peru, you will probably want 2 tents - one ultralight for highcamps and one bigger more comfortable tent for basecamps (pack animals carry loads to basecamps anyways).  

Also, if you are thinking about cost effectiveness, I wouldn’t personally recommend experimenting with a new specialty product like the HMG. One single user posted photo on Backcountry doesn’t mean you’ll be happy with it in all of your endeavors. For all you know, that guy has 5 different tents and pulls out the HMG when he knew the weather would be fantastic. Personally, I’d get it as my 4th or 5th tent to bring when the conditions are perfect, but not my first primary tent. Specialty products are also harder to resell.

Hilleberg makes a great tent. But one caution, if used in sandy conditions the zipper pulls can wear quickly.  Brush the zippers daily and have Hilleberg send you a couple of backup pulls.

Chris C. wrote:

The Hilleberg Jannu is probably the better contender if you are trying to do a all-around tent.  The HMG would not be very appropriate on bigger mountains.  I've actually seen one being used at the Alpamayo BC, and it was not at all apparently worthy of moving any higher.  Maybe as an emergency tent or a ultra-ultralight tent, but I wouldn't want that to be my primary plan.  It also looked like it sucked as a basecamp tent.  They seem to be for a very specific use. (And this was not that use.)  From their website descriptions, it looks like they market the tent as a backpacking tent rather than a mountaineering tent. I'd be okay taking one on Baker or Rainier if the weather looked really good, but it would be far from my first choice.

If you want an ultralight tent for higher altitude mountaineering, go for something along the design of the Direkt2.  For anywhere where it may rain, you will probably prefer something like the Hilleberg Jannu.  

For PNW summers, I usually just choose to not climb on days where the forecast predicts rain and will mostly use the Direkt2 for the season.  For Kilimanjaro, the Jannu would be great while the Direkt2 would be inappropriate.  (I actually slept in a Jannu on Kili.)   I've never climbed in Mexico, so I can't say anything about that - I'd guess the Jannu though.  For Peru, you will probably want 2 tents - one ultralight for highcamps and one bigger more comfortable tent for basecamps (pack animals carry loads to basecamps anyways).  

Also, if you are thinking about cost effectiveness, I wouldn’t personally recommend experimenting with a new specialty product like the HMG. One single user posted photo on Backcountry doesn’t mean you’ll be happy with it in all of your endeavors. For all you know, that guy has 5 different tents and pulls out the HMG when he knew the weather would be fantastic. Personally, I’d get it as my 4th or 5th tent to bring when the conditions are perfect, but not my first primary tent. Specialty products are also harder to resell.

Chris, thanks for sharing your experience with the Jannu. The feature that has turned me away from the single wall tents like the Direkt2 and eldorado is the fact the poles pitch inside the tent which seems difficult and likely to get the inside wet in a storm.

Why do 4 season tents have to be so expensive (rhetorical)? It would be less stressful to pick the right one if they didn't cost so much.

steve.g wrote:

Chris, thanks for sharing your experience with the Jannu. The feature that has turned me away from the single wall tents like the Direkt2 and eldorado is the fact the poles pitch inside the tent which seems difficult and likely to get the inside wet in a storm.

Why do 4 season tents have to be so expensive (rhetorical)? It would be less stressful to pick the right one if they didn't cost so much.

The single wall alpine tents really shouldn’t be used in the rain to begin with. I can pitch mine in 2-3 minutes, which really limits snow getting in as well. In fact, I have never had more snow than a few handfuls get blown in that are totally trivial to scoop out. Regardless, if you only want one tent, a single wall isn’t really a good option anyways. 

And all of mountaineering is expensive! It’s part of the challenge haha 

Chris C. wrote:

The single wall alpine tents really shouldn’t be used in the rain to begin with. I can pitch mine in 2-3 minutes, which really limits snow getting in as well. In fact, I have never had more snow than a few handfuls get blown in that are totally trivial to scoop out. Regardless, if you only want one tent, a single wall isn’t really a good option anyways. 

And all of mountaineering is expensive! It’s part of the challenge haha 

What do you do for cooking with the light weight single wall tents since there typically isn't a vestibule?  Do you have enough space to cook in the middle of the tent with a jetboil or just pack foods that don't require cooking?

steve.g wrote:

What do you do for cooking with the light weight single wall tents since there typically isn't a vestibule?  Do you have enough space to cook in the middle of the tent with a jetboil or just pack foods that don't require cooking?

I pretty much run a stove regardless of what I am eating. Most of the time the stove is running to melt snow into water. Then dropping some boiling water into a freeze dried pouch of food is pretty easy. I’ll either just try to vent the tent as best as possible, or just boil outside if the weather allows. 

I’ve acrually been considering getting the vestibule attachment for my Dk2. I believe the BD have them too. Mostly for boiling water and storing gear overnight in. 

steve.g wrote:

Pyramid Stability

For those who questioned the stability of pyramid tents is that based on designs with (HMG) or without (BD and MLD) side tie outs?  The Ultramids have four tie outs which coupled with the cuben fiber material are what sets them apart and from what I read enables them to be pitched in the mountains.

Remaining Questions:

1. Does anyone have practical experience with the Ultamids in the mountains supporting how much of a beating they can really take from the wind if pitched properly?  I found an image I copied below from a backcountry review that seems to suggest they are pretty sturdy if the individual chose to pitch them on a ridge line.

Image taken from backcountry.com review of the ultramid 2 by Conor H.

2. Would you recommend a two person or four person size as the weight difference is relatively minimal at 118 g?  Concern was if I get the 4 person tent it would be hard to find a place to pitch given its size. The four person tent is 9.25 feet in length and width which is larger than your typical camp site.

Conclusion:

While significantly lighter than the full weight of the Jannu at 3,200 g (7 lbs), the 1,400 g associated with the outer structure is still relatively heavy when compared to the ultramid 2 (539 g) or 4 (657 g) options to sku my preference towards the Ultramid.  To help illustrate the difference I calculated the ounce weight per square foot of floor space for each setup in the table below.  The Ultamids are about 0.3 oz per square foot while the Jannu outer tent is 1.2 oz per square foot.  Calculations for the Ultamids exclude the weight of trekking poles because I don't consider them added weight since they are multipurpose and would be taken to base camp anyways.  I am leaning towards the ultramids if they will work well in the wind.  

I've spent a few days holed up in my mid during a blizzard, pitched on an exposed granite dome. Lots of wind and sideways sleet. Didn't have any issues but I had the luxury of pitching it well (wall tie outs etc) before the storm came in. In winter conditions it's quite easy to dig a hole and put the mid in that. Really the only drawback I've found is longer pitch times and unwillingness of partners to sleep in 'not a tent'. I enjoy the versatility in that I can own one tent for anything. If you are concerned about base camping you may collapse the mid, cover it with snow and have no worries about the tent not being there when you get back.

If you are planning on going out with 3/4 people often then get the four person. The two person will likely fit three when pitched with two poles A frame style. You may need something to extend them. 

I think it's worth considering something like a MLD silnylon mid as it'll be heavier but pack smaller, plus it's yellow. That's a nice colour when you're stuck inside for a few days.

Beean wrote:

I've spent a few days holed up in my mid during a blizzard, pitched on an exposed granite dome. Lots of wind and sideways sleet. Didn't have any issues but I had the luxury of pitching it well (wall tie outs etc) before the storm came in. In winter conditions it's quite easy to dig a hole and put the mid in that. Really the only drawback I've found is longer pitch times and unwillingness of partners to sleep in 'not a tent'. I enjoy the versatility in that I can own one tent for anything. If you are concerned about base camping you may collapse the mid, cover it with snow and have no worries about the tent not being there when you get back.

If you are planning on going out with 3/4 people often then get the four person. The two person will likely fit three when pitched with two poles A frame style. You may need something to extend them. 

I think it's worth considering something like a MLD silnylon mid as it'll be heavier but pack smaller, plus it's yellow. That's a nice colour when you're stuck inside for a few days.

Beean, thanks for sharing.  

"Really the only drawback I've found is longer pitch times and unwillingness of partners to sleep in 'not a tent'.  

I shared my idea of the pyramid tent with my climbing partners as a lightweight option for mountaineering and they were not thrilled with the idea of staying in a floorless shelter which was unconventional to them. This may be an uphill battle and a good reason to go with the smaller 2 person tent as i may not be able to find enough people to fill the 4 person ultramid to justify its space.

I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion there isn't a single 4 season tent that will cover everything from fast and light to bigger objectives on more exposed terrain requiring a more robust design. Likely need to figure which option works best for my short term objectives of mountaineering use in lower 48 and maintain my current 15 year old tent for car camping and backpacking for the time being.

Another issue with pyramid tents is that they don't stand up well to heavy snowfall. In places like the Alaska range it can easily snow 1-2' overnight. With a pyramid tent you'll have to get up and shovel every hour or so if you don't want the walls to cave in.

First thing that comes to mind is do you really need a four-season shelter. With the extra 4th season you're gaining the ability to stand up to snow load which is great if you're doing winter Mountaineering or freak storms in say the Alaska range. I personally prefer to have a stable of shelters to pick from the best one for each situation. Here in the northwest I've used everything from no shelter, tarp shelter, Mountain Hardwear trango 3, North Face ve 25. Truth be told in all those situations, all summer trips, we would easily have been served by a 3 season tent. If I look out and see crap weather I just don't head up into the mountains. It's also cheaper to buy a 3-season tent that will be more applicable for backpacking, car camping, Etc. Once you get into high altitude Mountaineering or winter mountaineering then consider spending the real money for the four season shelter

I too would start with a lightweight three season that keeps the bugs out.  Your Pacific NW objectives may not need any more than a three season lightweight tent, digging in a tent and up snobuilding walls will help keep you warm (not weather a storm per say).  However, Rainier/Baker are two day or three day trips so your weather forecast is likely pretty dialed and in late spring and summer it's fairly warm. 

With that said I have a BD Megamid that I've used a ton (as a cook tent to Alaska three times, four day ski traverse, winter mountaineering/skiing).  It's cheap, it's oddly versatile for snow camping with groups. It also has its short-coming and sometimes feels unnecessary (e.g. snow caves weight literally nothing and are just as storm/wind protected and open bivys are great when the weather is warm and calm) In summary, I wouldn't pay double or triple for a slightly lighter or more durable version of the Megamid.

I'm selling a practically new Jannu I bought last year for $575 for any interested parties.

I've camped with my family for over 10 years and my favorite car camping tent is a two-pole, 11mm fiberglass poles, half-length rainfly, tarp floor, Colemansundome 10x10 like this https://bestoutdooritems.com/best-frame-tent/ It's super easy to set up, roomy, and affordable. I bought it about 10 years ago for about $80. I've used this tent in death valley!!! So, I highly recommend these, also check out this review, it's will be interesting for you)

Haven't read your full post but I'm selling my Ultamid 2. It's been awesome for me, just need the cash and it's a bit short for my 6'4" frame (not sure how tall you are) so I'll probably invest in the 4 down the road if/when I can. Very lightly used: mountainproject.com/forum/t…

steve.g wrote:

I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion there isn't a single 4 season tent that will cover everything from fast and light to bigger objectives on more exposed terrain requiring a more robust design. Likely need to figure which option works best for my short term objectives of mountaineering use in lower 48 and maintain my current 15 year old tent for car camping and backpacking for the time being.

@steve.g I know this thread is ancient, but what route did you end up going with, and how has it worked out for you?