Devil's Lake Climbing Incident

Dylan B. wrote:

And, I would add, in the 70+ year history of climbing at the lake, this is I believe the very first fatality (excluding scramblers/hikers falling off the cliffs).

First of all, my condolences to the family and friends of Savannah.

Secondly, there is only one other roped climbing death that I am aware of at Devil's Lake that happened around 2000.  A climber was top roping on Elephant rocks, got to the top and the anchor pulled when it was weighted to lower.

A memorial thread for Savannah is here:
Eulogy for Savannah Buik

I'd urge those of you who may already expressed your regret and condolences, to repost them in the Memorial thread.

Thanks,
Doug

ABB wrote:

Heartfelt condolences to the family and friends on their loss of a shining star.

A general comment or two. ‘Freak occurrence’ is a platitude. Nothing ‘freak’ about the results of gravity or falling. For some, there’s comfort in such a platitude as it fallaciously diminishes probability (of a bad outcome) and responsibility to address such an outcome.

By "freak" I'm talking about how she impacted. Had her helmet hit the rock things could have been different.

‘Cams don’t just fall out…’ True, but they can vibrate their way out during a fall. Climbers underestimate the vibratory role of a rope rapidly running through a ‘biner and the transfer of that vibration to 'biner gates ('flutter') and cam lobes. I’ve pulled cams, been crunched and also thanked my lucky stars more than once after cams vibrated their way dangerously close to popping. Tight, sinker cams in good condition, forearm-deep in coarse granite, slick basalt and quartzite, desert sandstone…migrating toward daylight. Cams with sluggish action or light spring-tension are dangerous.

Huh? Weird stuff can happen but a common "fluttering" of your cams isn't normal.  Weak springs maybe, but if cams get sluggish they just need to be cleaned and lubed.

I almost always extension runner my gear, I believe I have avoided walking cams and problem rope drag this way. Also, any walking cam I have ever encountered walked in, not out, walking in to a wider space would be a problem but of course a placement where that could happen should be avoided.

Brian Carver wrote:

This is all speculation. I doubt we will ever know exactly what trauma occurred and what the exact consequences of each trauma were. If we are trying to learn from this tragedy then we must consider all possible precautions. 

I do know that foam helmets protect the lateral and posterior aspects of the head better and GENERALLY protect lower on the neck line than hard shell/suspension helmets. 

I don't wear one so it doesn't matter to me.  

Regardless of how it happened, I'm always saddened to hear about something like this.

Gabe B. wrote: I protect the crux with a very small nut and a very small cam, this makes sense and is tragic. I know people at DL that have blown pieces and decked. I think this accident could happen to anybody honestly. 

I agree that this crux can be tough to protect.  If you REALLY get some good wires up under that roof into cracks, and take a fall that is caught (without hitting the big ledge by any luck) those wired nuts are going to be permanently there and non-removable I'd guess.  A slight angle here or there, or a twist of a quickdraw, etc...may have caused a placement failure. And it's a bad landing , and if you run out the crux move to any stance, you are then in the position of taking a definite ground fall, even if your pro' stays in place just due to the rope that is out and the natural stretch it will have, belayer reaction time, style of belay device used, and on and on.   I too, look forward to a full analysis of this incident and a full report.   Sadly, we can imagine this will end up in the AAJ 'Accidents in North America' for 2019 edition. I do feel that most of those expressing their interest here are not trying to be insensitive, but always look at accidents and incidents as a learning experience for all of us.     

I do agree that is will take time and I myself, won't continue to hypothesize or chat' here about it any longer for the sake of the family.  This will be my last response on this thread.  If someone has a comment or question to direct to me,  just hit the PM and I'll find it in a couple days.  
             When official news comes out, I'm sure someone here at MP will know and get the word out in an appropriate manner to us.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:

I agree that this crux can be tough to protect.  If you REALLY get some good wires up under that roof into cracks, and take a fall that is caught (without hitting the big ledge by any luck) those wired nuts are going to be permanently there and non-removable I'd guess.  A slight angle here or there, or a twist of a quickdraw, etc...may have caused a placement failure. And it's a bad landing , and if you run out the crux move to any stance, you are then in the position of taking a definite ground fall, even if your pro' stays in place just due to the rope that is out and the natural stretch it will have, belayer reaction time, style of belay device used, and on and on.   I too, look forward to a full analysis of this incident and a full report.   Sadly, we can imagine this will end up in the AAJ 'Accidents in North America' for 2019 edition. I do feel that most of those expressing their interest here are not trying to be insensitive, but always look at accidents and incidents as a learning experience for all of us.     

I do agree that is will take time and I myself, won't continue to hypothesize or chat' here about it any longer for the sake of the family.  This will be my last response on this thread.  If someone has a comment or question to direct to me,  just hit the PM and I'll find it in a couple days.  
             When official news comes out, I'm sure someone here at MP will know and get the word out in an appropriate manner to us.

Guys, there's not going to be any "official" report worth a damn. The AAC didn't fly out a forensic team to analyze the accident. Perhaps some statements were taken from witnesses but I even doubt that. In just about every climbing accident the "report" is a jumbled layman's mess. Maybe some park rangers made some inquiries but what do they or Sherrifs know about climbing? The people that know DL climbing the best have either posted already or are watching this thread. 

We are missing some crucial information:
-Where did she fall?
-Where was the gear?
-Where was the belayor standing?
-Was there runners on the gear?
-Which size cams pulled?

Obviously only a witness who is an experienced climber can clear this up. That's what we need.

Surprisingly, Sometimes protects really well with hexes, how do I know? I've done it several times.. and fallen on most of them. Cams aren't always the appropriate solution.

Sorry, in my hasty read through I assumed Sometimes, It was Birch Tree, even better pro with passive gear. Folks ya'll need to be careful in assuming cams can do "everything", they can't. There is a time and place for them, they don't work everywhere. DL is a special kind of stone, it's one of the few places i really trust brass (i don't here in N.C.), but cams in quartzite can be tricky.

Mark Wenzel wrote: Sorry, in my hasty read through I assumed Sometimes, It was Birch Tree, even better pro with passive gear. Folks ya'll need to be careful in assuming cams can do "everything", they can't. There is a time and place for them, they don't work everywhere. DL is a special kind of stone, it's one of the few places i really trust brass (i don't here in N.C.), but cams in quartzite can be tricky.

There is also a time and a place for advice like this. This is neither. 

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

There is also a time and a place for advice like this. This is neither. 

Alicia and the people like you. There's a memorial thread, go there if you don't want to discuss the accident details and related discussions. The point of this thread is to turn a tragedy into something productive and positive. If one person reads the comments in here and avoids a similar accident then it's more than worth it. I'll bet the deceased would want it that way.

Simply discussing an accident and (gasp) going off topic is not a injustice to you, the witnesses, or the victim. So stop being so morally righteous and just don't read this thread if you can't handle it.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

There is also a time and a place for advice like this. This is neither. 

To echo Tradiban, but it is... someone just decked on one of the safest for the grade leads in the park. Unfortunately this issue isn't limited to the lake, I see this problem down here in N.C. as well (where the trad climbing is waaay more dangerous) with folks making the transition from the gym/sport realm to trad, and treating cams like magic bolts that you can just jam in. An 00 mastercam is A2, a well placed wire of the same size will hold a small whip, it's a hard lesson.

Tradiban wrote:

The point of this thread is to turn a tragedy into something productive and positive.

First page of this thread, there's a link to a NOLS presentation on how to do incident reports, by someone who's well respected in the outdoors risk management world. Lots of thumbs ups were thrown at it.

Not all of it relevant to discussions, but some parts are: A large part of it is how to discuss an incident with tact, and another large part is how to approach sharing all the nitty gritties with the entire world.

This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Yeah; we're pretty firmly on the opposite of how to manage communities. I've watched too many respond to complaints with "ohhhh, it isn't that bad" while droves of people I do wanna hang out with are walking out the door. It's made me into a heavy handed fascist.

Mark Wenzel wrote: Sorry, in my hasty read through I assumed Sometimes, It was Birch Tree, even better pro with passive gear. Folks ya'll need to be careful in assuming cams can do "everything", they can't. There is a time and place for them, they don't work everywhere. DL is a special kind of stone, it's one of the few places i really trust brass (i don't here in N.C.), but cams in quartzite can be tricky.

Moving on...

Gear at DL in general is more tricky. More care than what might be usual setting gear is necessary for sure. Cams work there and generally work well, so I don't want to poo-poo their use but I agree with Mark that there's an over reliance on cams, probably because they are quick to set. It's good advice to buy nuts and use them when possible.
I was emailed by someone asking, in light of this accident if hexs are better than cams at DL. The simple answer is "no" because the good hex placements are fewer and farther in between, however a good hex placement is pretty damn bomber, but so is a good cam placement. I stopped leading on hexs long ago because a cam is just a more versatile piece.
I've whipped on very small cams at DL that were the difference between life and death, cams work but there has to be a little more care taken in setting them because it's more difficult to know if they are "good" or "bad" than with passive gear.

Worst,
Tradiban

Tradiban wrote:

...
stop being so morally righteous ...

I normally enjoy irony, but this just makes me sad.  What ever happened to the old Nick Rhoads?  He had enough empathy and concern to come out after dark looking for a group that was late returning from the Rainbow Wall.  He was really sweet, and I miss that guy.

Tradiban wrote:

Guys, there's not going to be any "official" report worth a damn.

While I normally appreciate your omniscience, Nick, you are just wrong here.  There will be an official report, and it will be well done.  Many of the questions you raise will be answered, but not all of them.
It's true the DNR do not have much experience with climbing accidents (which speaks to the amount of risk most of us actually take, regardless how it looks too outsiders).  However, they have plenty of experience investigating accidents in outdoor recreation settings, and are doing a very thorough and professional job.  They are asking the right questions, and understand the limits of their own knowledge.

An accident like this stirs up pretty powerful emotions in all of us.  It seems to me human nature that those who knew the victim want to console themselves by remembering that person's strengths and momentarily drawing them closer.  It is also human nature that many people will console themselves by trying to put distance between their own actions and those of the accident victim.  For many of us, it is a mix of those two.  The problem for a "public" discussion is that all nuance of tone and empathy is lost, and the two ends of the spectrum just grate on each other.

It is probably the case that we need two separate threads after any serious accident.

People imagine what they would have done differently that would have kept them safe, and they usually reduce their imagining to one or two contributing factors.  Many non-climbers predictably comfort themselves with the declaration that “he shouldn’t have been climbing in the first place.”  Climbers are going to comfort themselves with some climbing-specific “mistake” that he made.

Some people feel compelled to “share” their “analysis” (aka speculation) publicly.  I guess it gives them added affirmation that this won’t happen to them if someone agrees with their analysis.  But they are basically comforting themselves, not us.

We pretty much all speculate how things could have been different.  I speculate.  Regardless of how clinical someone tries to make it sound, there is an emotional component as we attempt to comfort ourselves.  Sadly, it is also an attempt to distance ourselves from the victim.  It takes actual humility and courage to say “that could just as easily have happened to me.”

Doug Hemken wrote: While I normally appreciate your omniscience, Nick, you are just wrong here.  There will be an official report, and it will be well done.  Many of the questions you raise will be answered, but not all of them.
It's true the DNR do not have much experience with climbing accidents (which speaks to the amount of risk most of us actually take, regardless how it looks too outsiders).  However, they have plenty of experience investigating accidents in outdoor recreation settings, and are doing a very thorough and professional job.  They are asking the right questions, and understand the limits of their own knowledge.

Sorry but I kind of doubt the quality of the report. I hope to be proven wrong. 

As for the "old" me, rent the move "Hero" with Dustin Hoffman, it's all you need to know and just because I say the things that everyone is thinking and ask uncomfortable questions doesn't mean I don't care. If fact, I think it shows that care more than others, because I'm doing something about it, while rest just sit on their hands.

Worst,
Tradiban

BTC was one of three climbs I led at the lake last spring on my first visit, it is a no joke old school 5.8 with a low crux and really slick, heavily traveled rock. It was one of those routes where I'd give it a classic rating for TR but only one star for the lead. RIP