Insulated Jackets for Movement?

Hey climbing peeps! I’m wondering what midweight insulated jackets you folks use for activity in cold weather. It seems that most insulated jackets fall into either the ultralight category or the parka catagory, without much in between. 

I’ve been in a quite a few situations on 16-20,000’ peaks where layering my Ghostwhisperer and Atom LT are not enough, but throwing on something like a Nilas would be wayyyy too much. The final result is usually just suffering in the cold and praying for warmth. Ideally I would have a layer comparable to 2-3x a Ghostwhisperer. 

Has anybody had success finding a layer like this? Everything I have found is more “outdoor” oriented rather than alpine. (No helmet compatibility, heavy gauge outer material, etc.) The sort of layer I am looking for would be less than ideal in the lower 48, which is why I’m guessing it isn’t really very available. I’m lucky enough to live a few blocks away from the Feathered Friends store, but they don’t have anything that fits the bill. 

Look at what Rab has, honestly i think they have the most complete offering when it comes to alpine and mountaineering insulation.

My other advice would be: move faster to generate heat, or at lest be cold for less amount of time haha.

DRusso wrote:

Look at what Rab has, honestly i think they have the most complete offering when it comes to alpine and mountaineering insulation.

My other advice would be: move faster to generate heat, or at lest be cold for less amount of time haha.

Good call on Rab. I’ve got nowehere to try them on so I guess I’ll be ordering a bunch of stuff off Backcountry! 

Basically the move fast thing is what I have been doing haha 

I've been out in cold conditions lately with lots of standing around punctuated by heavy exertion (avalanche classes with teaching/hole digging/moving through terrain) in temperatures from 35* and raining down into the low teens with 40mph winds this winter.  I've sorted my layers out to a bunch of pieces from OR starting with a thin fleece (Radiant hybrid 1/4 zip), a thin polartec alpha jacket (Ascendant w/hood), a thicker alpha jacket (Uberlayer one size larger than the Ascendant), and a gore-tex shell over the top (Whiteroom).  On the colder days I'll carry one more layer in my pack, usually a thin vest, that I can add to my system or give out to a student that didn't listen to the warning about dressing warmer for classes than they would for normal ski tours.  I've toured a bit with all of my layers on in low teens in the sun and was comfortable but had to slow my pace slightly to prevent sweating but I'm usually a sweaty beast in the mountains.  I find I don't have to do much with my legs to be comfortable as long as I keep my core warm and a lot of days I'll have 3 hoods up but I don't typically wear a helmet when I'm teaching.  Two of the three hoods would fit over a helmet and the Ascendant hood would fit under a helmet.  For climbing in a higher range further north you might have to adjust to suit but this has worked well for me in all conditions I've run into this winter in the PNW.

Chris C. wrote:

Good call on Rab. I’ve got nowehere to try them on so I guess I’ll be ordering a bunch of stuff off Backcountry! 

Basically the move fast thing is what I have been doing haha 

I used to run the clothing department at a gear shop for years that sold a bunch of Rab.

My advice for fit would be this: if you are tall and thin and most companies clothing is too short for your torso and arms you will love Rab and can order your normal size.

If you are not tall and thin, I would recommend buying a size up from what you would normally wear. Their fit is similar to other slim fit euro brands but don't let that deter you because all their stuff is top notch.

So you want a down coat between those two? Ghostwisperer has 2.79 oz of fill and nilas has 7.58 oz and is box baffled so there are lots of coats in between. 

I have the dynafit cho oyu and like it. Box Baffled like a parka but about half the fill of a nilas at 4.76 oz, works well for cold windy winter days in Montana but not a full on belay coat.

Sportiva Cham and other euro skimo down coats are similar. Montbell has lots of good stuff  and even just the heavier fill down sweaters from US brands (patagonia high loft etc) could also be worth looking at as well.

Ghost whisperer is 3.4 oz of down right? I think something in the 5 oz range may be what you are looking for? I think the Nilas is at 9oz. The Cerium LT is definitely warmer than my ghost whisperer so that could be an option too. 

I used it climbing in Ouray last month for a week and it was about 15degrees+windchill and in the shade. Wore it all day almost everyday. 

The Montane Prism has been great for me and the Pertex microlight is bomber. It breathes really well while being windproof. I’ve hiked approaches in it, led climbs in it, even got away with not having a proper belay jacket for years when pairing it with a good fleece. 

Jordan W wrote:

I used it climbing in Ouray last month for a week and it was about 15degrees+windchill and in the shade. Wore it all day almost everyday. 

I got rid of mine. Pockets aren't insulated which to me isn't compatible with a belay jacket. Maybe ok for OP's active use but I'd probably look at the breathable Proton instead for that role.

It seems like you're favoring a midweight down jacket. Why not the Phantom since you like MH's other stuff? 

Can you expand on the conditions and the rest of your layering system Chris? Is it just on descents when you aren't working hard? Is it simple temp related or does wind play a large part in it? Instead of adding more insulation you might want to try a different look at base layers first. 

In the last year I played around with the ideas Mark Twight wrote about in "extreme alpinism" (well worth a read if you haven't already) of using a windshirt as semi permeable above a base layer. For the base layer I wanted minimal fabric in contact with my skin, to cut back on conductive heat loss after sweating on a strenuous section (especially with a pack on the back). It might sound goofy, but I went with a synthetic fishnet base layer from Brynje in Norway. Even when all layers are drenched it's very warm due to the air pockets the fishnet creates, it works better in this respect than grid fleeces as a base. https://www.nordiclife.co.uk/products/brynje-super-thermo-shirt-with-inlay?ref=yotpo_93

Over the top of that go for a form fitting windshirt that has a medium cfm rating, 20-40 seems about ideal. If it's too breathable (pertex equilibrium fabric ~100cfm) then you get affected significantly by wind and end up adding insulating layers for extended exposure. If it's too air tight (current houdini) then it's to easy to build up sweat with a short bit of brief exertion. The BD alpine start seems to be the goldilocks for me, but needs to be sized down to be snug enough to not flap and layer over. Pataguchi airshed looks like an even better option and is cut more appropriately for this.

When you combine the two it's like a second skin, makes a nice happy microclimate around you that makes a giant range of comfort over different levels of exertion/temp/wind. Throw your breathable layer over the top as conditions require. You'll find you need far less insulation. I tried this out in -15 degree temps in Canmore last year and the two set ups had the same warmth, second was more comfortable throughout the day:

• Rab meco 120 t, BD coefficient hoody, montbell thermawrap vest, dead bird proton LT 
• Brynje thermomsesh long sleeve, BD alpine start, proton LT

1. Icebreaker Sphere LS Hood
2. Arcteryx Gamma LT
3. Arcteryx Atom LT
4. Mountain Hardwear Ghostwishperer

The cold may definitely be from poor wind protection, and I believe that is where the Ghostwishperer may be completely failing to keep me warm. It would either be that or the Atom LT that I would be looking to upgrade to something a bit warmer. I'm usually feeling the need for a bit more warmth at the pre-dawn hours and then on descent, especially if it is windy.  I've never actually actually seen a Arcteryx Proton or Nuclei in person.  I'm hoping that one of those will solve my woes.  

I caught the active insulation bug last year & I've been pretty happy with the technology.  Patagonia's Nano-Air series (40 & 60 g/m2 FullRange Insulation) is the most breathable I've tested, and Arc'teryx's Proton LT Hoody (65 g/m2 CoreLoft Continuous) offers decent wind/weather protection, but still allows for good breathability.   Arc'teryx makes the Proton AR Hoody with 90 g/m2 of CoreLoft Continuous in the body & 65 g/m2 in the sleeves if you're looking for something a little more insulated.

I don't climb at altitude like you, but my layering system has worked really well here in the Northeast on ice at temps from -20ºF to 30ºF:

1. Patagonia Capilene Lightweight Crew Longsleeve

2. Patagonia Nano-Air Light Hoody (40 g/m2)

3. Arc'teryx Proton LT Hoody (65 g/m2)

4. Arc'teryx Alpha FL Jacket for excessive wind/precip/drippy routes

I find I rarely need the hardshell because the active insulation breathes & dries so quickly. Since the Alpha FL is so light & packable, it disappears in my pack and it's there when I need it.  This system allows me to adjust if I get too warm/cold as necessary.  I used to have a Gamma LT, but realized how heavy it is compared to a hardshell like the Alpha FL, so I sold it.  The Nano-Air Light Hoody and the Proton LT Hoody breath so well, I don't feel the need for a softshell while climbing anymore.  The Proton LT pretty much replaces a softshell in the winter/ice.

As far as breathability goes, I've never used anything with Polartec Alpha, which Rab uses.  I've read great things about the Alpha insulation in terms of breathability though.

Imo alpine ice is steering you in the right direction.  You need a good layer system, and should look into breathable active insulation in multiple layers.

The mesh base definitely gets people talking, it’s best to own it by asking everyone where the club is at if you need to change :) It’s truly a worthy trade off though, nothing comes close in comfort over such a wide range. For reference I’ve had merino in 150-250 gram, 70/30 merino poly mix, merino with synthetic next to skin (helly Hansen), polypropylene in various weights, helly lifa, poly with a textured finish next to skin, 100 weight fleece, and polartec power dry he (first bd coefficient and last gen pataguchi cap 4). 

I think you’re on the right train of thought about your current layers and wind. That atom lt first was the best breathable puffy a decade ago, but those stretch side panels are a band aid fix for a poor moisture transfer insulation. I was always left cold when the breeze kicked up with that style of construction. Same thing with any puffy that has stitch through construction. 

I second alpine ice on recommending the proton or nano air line as well as his comments about breathability. I have a proton lt and a nano air light hybrid. I use the former ice climbing and riding down splitboarding. The nano light hybrid has a waffle back/under arm, it’s great trail running, touring uphill and for rock in the high 30-50 range (stay out of offwidth and chimneys). I would recommend proton over the nuclei as an active layer, it’s calendared outer fabric stops more wind/precip but also makes it less breathable. I have the origins nuclei (80gr coreloft in body) as a belay jacket for alpine rock, if you sweat much on a strenuous section it takes far longer to dry. 

If you can’t find the proton or nuclei local and want to check them out I’m at Sg Bellevue regularly in the winter. 

So from doing more research into reassessing my whole laying systrm, is it true to assume that the soft shell is no longer a thing and has been replaced by breathable light insulation? 

For example, it looks like Arxteryx has removed the Gamma LT from their “Alpine” line altogether. Is the Proton LT basically filling that spot now? I popped into the Arcteryx store today and it looks like they aren’t carrying it at this point in the year, so I couldn’t check it out in person. Patagonia and Mountain Hardwear’s softshell lines are pretty slim as well it looks like. 

Chris C. wrote:

So from doing more research into reassessing my whole laying systrm, is it true to assume that the soft shell is no longer a thing and has been replaced by breathable light insulation? 

For example, it looks like Arxteryx has removed the Gamma LT from their “Alpine” line altogether. Is the Proton LT basically filling that spot now? I popped into the Arcteryx store today and it looks like they aren’t carrying it at this point in the year, so I couldn’t check it out in person. Patagonia and Mountain Hardwear’s softshell lines are pretty slim as well it looks like. 

The Psiphon FL has taken its spot and it's so much better. Much lighter and climber oriented, I only wear my gamma lt when it's going to be COLD out... The protons definitely aren't going to cut wind and shed precipitation like the gamma/psiphon will. They're extremely breathable. I bring my softshell everywhere, I'm not dropping mine from my kit anytime soon.

The breathable puffies are typically worn without a softshell, yes. They are moderately weather resistant on their own so they fill that role fine. Their advantage is weight. Insulation + weather resistance under a pound (compared to fleece + softshell 1.5-2lbs). Disadvantage is durability - synthetic insulation loses its loft over time and the shell material on these puffies isn't typically as durable as an independent softshell. Can't have it all! 

So I would say there's still a place for a fleece + softshell combo, ie if you're on a budget that setup will last you forever. But these new fangled things are nice! I like the Proton line better than the Nano Air personally (burlier shell, helmet compatible hood).

Chris C. wrote:

Has anybody had success finding a layer like this? Everything I have found is more “outdoor” oriented rather than alpine. (No helmet compatibility, heavy gauge outer material, etc.) 

I was in same situation as you and everyone here has been helpful, and looks like the usual suspects like Rab, Arc'teryx, Patagonia and Mountain Hardwear for Alpine oriented mid-layers have been touched on, but have you considered Alpine focused mid-layers from The North Face Summit Series? 

In particular, the TNF Summit L3 Ventrix Hoodie with 80g/m2 dynamic venting Ventrix insulation or TNF Summit L3 Down Hoodie with 800 fill goose down (weight and warmth would sit perfectly between Ghost Whisperer and Nilas).

Both have helmet compatible hood, and TNF Summit L3 Ventrix Hoodie has highly abrasion resistant forearms and shoulders on top of an already abrasion resistant outer fabric on main body that looks to be as durable as the 30D fabric on the new Patagonia Nano-Air. 

I have the new Patagonia Nano-Air Hoodie with 30D face fabric and 60g/m2 Full Range Insulation, but have tried my friends TNF Summit L3 Ventrix Hoodie and TNF Summit L3 Down Hoodie, and liked the Summit L3 Series a whole lot better in terms of both warmth (yet still just as breathable), overall fit, and fit of adjustable hoodie. I run cold and regret not having tried out TNF Summit L3 Series first before getting the Nano-Air.

You might luck out on getting some end of season sales, and get TNF whole layering system from their L1 baselayer, L2 Polartec grid fleece, L3 Ventrix or 800 Down, L5 Shell and L6 Belay Parka.