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Yates Ladders Big Wall vs. Speed Wall
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Getting in to big wall stuff and looking to buy some aiders... Any thoughts on the Yates Big Wall vs. Speed Wall ladders? I'm a total newb at aid climbing and it sounds like the Big Wall version may be a little more user friendly. Does anyone have any recommendations one way or the other? |
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I would agree with your assessment, though I have never used the speed wall aiders. I have used the Big Wall ladders extensively and they perform great, really durable, comfortable to stand in for a while, while you mess with tricky placements. I would heartily recommend them to anyone that's looking to get into aid climbing. |
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Can't go wrong with either, they are both great. The Big Wall ones just have a little wider step surface, which is really just a wide nylon strip sewn into the same design. Speeds are just more streamlined but function the exact same. |
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Basically what Matt said. Used both, both function the same. If you're doing a super aid-intensive route just go ahead and buy the bigwall. It's the small things that count up there |
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I've stood in both the Yates Speed Ladders and the Yates Bigwall Ladders for literally thousands of hours each (Bigwall and aid cragging is what I do every weekend). There's no effective benefit to the Yates Bigwall Ladders over the Speeds as I've seen absolutely no difference in the support they provide your feet or longevity of the product over many many walls each. Also:
That said, get the set that are currently cheapest for you since you're just starting out and either one is going to be more than you'll need. My notes above are more nitpicky and something that's not going to be an issue for anyone unless they basically live in their ladders every weekend and vacation. |
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Cool! Thanks for all the thoughtful responses! Thanks for the details, Kevin! |
Fail Falling wrote: Sorry to necro this post, but this is exactly the info I needed. Thanks! Also semi-bumping in case someone might want to know the difference. I've got some old school etriers I've used forever, but I really want some ladders with the spreaders as they feel like they'll be more comfy. The Speedwall's look like what I wanna get though. Thanks again Kevin! |
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Was just having this debate in my head also Thanks for the info guys Will Order the speed ladder myself now! |
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to be fair, the metolius ladders seem to hang more “squared up,” rather than the sag that is inherent to both yates ladders. Also, the grippy rubber on the metolius ladders seems to be a benefit, at least compared to the small amount ive tried the yates ladders. Can always get BC to knock 20% off for ya... fwiw. Oh, and I’m pretty sure they’re a tad lighter. |
Christian Hesch wrote: one vote for metolius! They are a good price too, i think i have seen those for $40? I have some camp cassin ones now and my dog eat one tonight. sigh..... Thats what i get for leaving them out after climbing this past weekend. The camp/cassin ones are just to bulky and heavey although they are seriously sturdy with the metal rung on the top |
Christian Hesch wrote: The problem is that there's two types of aid climbers, those that do a few points of aid over a route they're mostly freeclimbing, and those that live in their ladders on a wall that is primarily aid. Try to actually top step consistently with those spreaderbarless Metolius worthless piles. Ladders without a spreader bar are a nonstarter, period. They might be lighter but so are etriers and both suck to live in on the wall. For those that only need them every now and then, just go with etriers as ladders are overkill |
Fail Falling wrote: I have, prob close to 100 times, at this point. Have yet to struggle to get in them. I could do another ~900 top steps, in case I happen to find 1-2 instances where I struggle to get into them... but why? I *have* slipped off of that slick PVC that is apparently so helpful on the yates, and also makes the opening that much smaller, compared to the metolius where you can actually settle in to a more "locked in" position on the nice rubberized rung (damn those rungs are sticky AF w/ that rubber coating!). I guess this is a YMMV situation. I used to have this same attitude towards certain cams, then I figured "why not be competent on every piece of gear I own." Now I try to bring metolius, dmm, and bd cams, even though they suck -relatively speaking - compared to totems. |
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I jut got the speed ladders and used them today. They are similar to my camp / cassin ones but lighter and shorter which i like. Overall seemed good today. Did hurt my feet a goodbit today in my approach shoes. Just kep constantly adjusting to help. Overall, im pleased |
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You don’t stand on the spreader bar... trust me I have before but that’s not what they are used for. Anyone who has spent a lot of time in their aiders knows that a spreader bar makes a night and day difference. Yes opinions vary but sometimes when I am trying to determine the value of someone’s advice and I am not familiar with the poster I take a quick peek at their MP profile. A lot of folks even keep an up to date list of ticks. So we’ve got... “Not so sure about this aid thing” referring to climbing the intro pitches of the nose 11 times vs. someone who has completed routes given A4 & grade VI Everyone’s always an expert online despite their actual experience. Now I need to not look at these stupid forums for another month because I have poor self restraint regarding these silly conversations and it’s just an unhealthy activity for me to partake in. |
Christian Hesch wrote: Why do you say bd cams suck Damn near everyone has a full bd rack That’s a bold claim I know totems are apparently amazing but to say bd cams suck? You guys are stepping on the pvc pipe? Lol Yes I consider that a handle |
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Dylan: Thank goodness I never claimed to be an expert. Even better, I gave a reasonably close numerical approximation of exactly how *little* experience I had... Most importantly, I made an educated guess that the OP is not going to be immediately jumping on A3/C3 routes in the next few months. Thus, i suggested the most eeconomical pair (that KD actually recommended by accident! "That said, get the set that are currently cheapest for you since you're just starting out..." ), as the metolius can be had on sale for less than 40 bucks. Not aware of many sales on Yates. Serious question (also to showcase my noob aid status), are you saying that the "top step" is the one below the spreader bar? Because that would make this whole discussion of "which brand of ladder top steps better" completely moot, IMO... that step is basically impossible to eff up on any ladder. The only tricky step (IMO) is the true top step, the one you can barely get your foot into, 4" below the hang loop. Bobby: "...relatively speaking..." I don't know how to make the statement more clear. How good is a cam that won't fit, no matter what? C4's and Dragon 2's fall into this category with regards to pin scars. Metolius tend to fit reasonably well in *most* scars but the simple fact is that totems will fit where the mainstay "big company" cams will not. Obviously Z4's and Dragonflys are much better in scars but the majority of climbers would rather be on a totem in a pin scar. |
Christian Hesch wrote: Well I have a full rack of 6 each of z4 and they have been great. And not nearly as bulky as totems Granted I have yet to stick the in a pin scar. I mostly aid crack that many people free climb but are just out of my free climbing range. So maybe they are not great for pin scars but that isn’t what you said the first time so thanks for clarifying
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Christian Hesch wrote: Yes, the top step is the one below the spreader bar as the spreader bar is not meant to be used as a step. Interestingly, if you compare a Yates ladder and a Metolius ladder, both of their top steps will be at the same relative spot give or take an inch. And as it looks like we're all accidentally admitting things here because what you call the "true top step" is just the top step on the Metolius ladder (and the one that is at the same place as the top step of the Yates ladders) and indeed is one you can barely get your foot into as I mentioned earlier in the thread. This issue that is precisely why ladders with without a spreader bar for those doing a significant amount of time in their ladders are nonstarters. FYI: There's an additional step (called the hero step generally) which is done by looping a 24" sling into the top biner and stepping in that. One could probably do the same with the sling handle of the Metolius due to its oversized nature. This could save a climber a gross total of 1 minute over the course of a route but the net total when you factor in the time spent getting your foot into the top step (or avoiding the top step and convincing yourself the second step is the top step) would be pretty far into the negative. |
Fail Falling wrote: I don’t know why this matters I basically try to never climb on my aiders higher then my waist. I use a petzl evolv similar to adjustable daisy and I never ever climb about the piece of pro I’m on. At that point my rope is not clipped into the gear I’m on and if the new piece above me fails while I’m bouncing testing it I’m going to factor 2 the piece I’m on with a static-ish rope weather it be a daisy , and adjustable daisy of petzl evolv. If you fail while top stepping and are using a daisy you are screwed. Anothe reason the second I commit to the next piece i immediately unclip my aider from it and clip the rope ASAP so if I do fall it’s in my dynamic rope
But there comes risks |
Fail Falling wrote: Dammit KD, stop making me learn things, I might actually become wiser... :) I'll have to look at the yates next time because the online photos indicate theres a significant space between the handle and the "top step." The metolius has a gap of 1.5-2 inches. According to the advert photos, the yates has a gap of approx 8 inches from handle to step. Doesn't seem like the same spot but I don't have both in front of me. I've used both and the handles seem about the same size. I agree that it's not *easy* to get into the top step on the metolius when you're already standing in the second step, but it's honestly not extremely difficult, at least on C1/C2 (where you can often grab something above). Here's one reason why I prob don't have any problem getting in, I almost exclusively climb with a "dual ladder" style, meaning I *don't* set one ladder, climb it, set another ladder, ad nauseam. Rather, I am always standing in *both* ladders, except when I am bumping the lower ladder up above me. Obviously this only works on C1/C2 style routes, as I'm sure it's not nearly as feasible on more difficult routes - However, didn't seem like this was what the OP was going to be jumping on next week, hence why the ladders that only cost $5 more (for a set) than a single yates bigwall seemed to make a bit more sense. If I knew that the OP's *eventual* goal was to jump on A2/A3, I might have not chimed in, as it makes more sense to just buy what you want the first time (like ponying up the money for Dura-Ace, over 105, for your road bike, etc.)  |
Christian Hesch wrote: Yup, I was thinking about the dual ladder system and using this would make it easy to get into the top steps since you're not weighing the ladder you're stepping into when getting your foot into the step but it's a slower system that isn't really used that often nowadays because it's significantly slower over the course of a 20 pitch wall. That said, my partner used 2 ladders with a floater and won't switch away from that no matter what I suggest, old dads like their ways. Definitely for the OP, as I said upthread, whatever they get is going to be fine for now as 95% of bigwallers never progress into harder aid and their stoke fizzles out after a couple walls, which is sad but it is what it is, but I think the dual ladder system needs to be presented to the OP as something to pair with the Metolius ladders should they choose to go with them since it's not the style that most new bigwallers will default to. I own almost every type of aid ladder that is currently available from the Metolius, to the Aideers, to Runout Customs, to both Yates kinds, including some weird metal step and perlon cord style that came from europe I assume. I also own etriers from Bdel and homemade ones from ¾" webbing as well as the adjustable easy aiders. And because i hate myself, a pair of russian aiders as well. My goal is always to try to figure out something I haven't learned and share that with any who may benefit while at the same time admitting that the amount of aid that I do is generally not applicable to how most do aid. I don't have my Metolius ladders with me as they're being borrowed, but I do remember weighing them against the Yates ladders and noticing the similarities in the top step between the two when you factor in the fact that the Metolius steps will sag a bit lower than the Yates when you're standing in them because of the lack of spreader bar which is accentuated the higher the step. Additionally, you can't use the perceived distance between the handle and the step as the webbing handles are different lengths depending upon the manufacturer.
It matters because aid is a game of inches. If you're only ever climbing easy C1 continuous cracks, then yes, it doesn't matter, but on bigwall routes in the valley, many C1 pitches are only C1 if you're in your top steps or super tall. If you're constantly placing from your 4th or 3rd steps (which puts the clip in point at your waist) then that C1 pitch can turn to C2 really quickly. Now factor in two things: the first is that if you placing from your 4th or 3rd steps you're going to have to make more placements over the course of a route, each placement and clipping and walking up the ladders and sorting the cluster takes time and time means more energy, more water, and more suffering over the course of the wall, the second is that C2 is significantly slower than C1 because you have to be more careful with the piece as it's bodyweight only as well as the slow down from dealing with the mental game of C2 placements compared to plug-and-go C1 boringness. You've got your aid sequence messed up. Before you go to test really your new piece (after a quick pull test and kick test depending upon the placement), you should clip your rope to the piece that you're on. Depending upon the situation it makes sense to unclip your ladders (or at least your daisy from the ladder) before moving to do your judicious bounce testing of the new piece. This has been the sequence for years precisely because it prevents the much-feared daisy fall. You have a belayer, use them. That said, the factor two daisy fall itself is not the holy grail of danger and fear that everyone thinks it is. I've had many many factor two daisy falls in my aid life and though they're jarring, they will not "screw" you. For added security, you can clip your daisy to the same loop that you've clipped your ladder biner into. In the event of a factor two daisy fall, this will rip through some of the stitches in that clip in loop and absorb some of the force of the fall similar to a screamer. No part of the ladder is a life supporting device so ripping through a few of those stitches isn't going to affect your climb and I've climbed on ladders where half the stitching on the clip in loop were blown out for multiple walls before replacing them due to other parts of the ladder wearing out.
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