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Intermittent fasting for active people?
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So yesterday I started to get the spray down on intermittent fasting. I'd never heard of it before. Basically you block about 16 (this varies 14-18) hours each/most days that you don't eat. You can eat after that. So no calorie restrictions, just a smaller window in which to consume. For most people working a basic 8-5 type schedule, this pretty much only means skipping breakfast and packing a larger than average office lunch. The prime benefit is supposed to be fat loss - of which my 145lbs (and I'm psyched to be up to that weight) doesn't care. The lesser benefits and semi-psuedoscience theories around it is actually what interests me more. So we come from cavemen. Yes they only lived 35 years but they didn't die of chronic illness. They hunted and gathered. They gorged when there was food, stored what they could, and starved when there was none. They didn't eat 3 squares a day or even the modern idea 6+ small meals. Maybe 1 good meal a day and whatever little things they could forage. To me this makes sense. This eating plan is supposed to improve focus, somehow allow better muscle growth on identical workouts (this is probably bs), increase lifespan (science fact that lower calorie diets lead to longer life), decrease severity and incidence of alzheimers, better GI flora/function, and lower depression. I don't know. I'm curious. To me it sounds like making every day an alpine day. Obviously on big days, when you know you can't eat enough no matter what, choose to eat breakfast. Has anyone tried this? How has it worked. Have any of the claims actually manifested? What are some of the biggest hurdles to maintaining a consistent training schedule, even when hungry much of the time? |
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If you're hungry most of the time doing this, not only will it be really hard to keep up but you probably aren't eating the right things. Fasting all day and then packing yourself full of pasta is going to leave you hungry for 23 hours of the day. I don't think I could keep that up. The key for me has been eating higher fat foods (but not highly processed ones, mind you). I often skip both breakfast and lunch and only eat dinner. I'm not arguing this is healthy but I very rarely get hungry which makes this really easy to do. While a lot is probably due to me being 23 and already having an EXTREMELY low BMI, I grow muscle really, really fast when I consistently work out and food-pack like crazy afterwards. I am not saying anything in terms of whether or not this is good for you but it is nice to be able to not eat anything and still climb 10's really easily all day. I don't alpine climb at all but I'm guessing this could be of great benefit. I ascribe that ability to regularly fasting in the past, sometimes completely for multiple days in a row. I would get really sick if I didn't have breakfast before I started intermittent fasting and now my body functions just fine for multiple days without food. Try it out, I say, and report back! |
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climbing friend, you can do it. it may help some with your gun-sculpting, but won't make some magical huge difference. the studiez of the animalz and rodentz are quite promising, yes, however actual science on the human subjectz is minimal to nonexistent, also no long term data we are having. |
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What I have read on this and from my own experience is that it generally doesnt help weight loss. I've been doing it regularly for about two years and I do generally feel better mentally and physically when sticking to it - increased strength and endurance - still fat tho. The hunger was a bit of a challenge initially, but I found that sipping coffee when the hunger hits will solve the problem quickly. |
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I was interested in this thread until I realized it said intermittent fasting........NOT internet fasting........ ;) |
Dana Bartlett wrote: I haven't seen the official tweet yet, is pubmed considered pseudoscience? I browsed it a bit. I'll look into it when I have more time. |
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So my BS radar tends to go off whenever I hear people glorify the days of Hunter/Gatherers and try to base modern diets on it. Not sure where you heard that they didn’t suffer chronic diseases (hint: they did) or how somebody could possibly prove that, considering the dirth of anthropological evidence. Eating massive amounts of carbs and protein after working out will, of course, help with muscle gain, as your body needs these molecules to repair muscle and limited studies have shown that the timing does matter. So if this lets you eat more then (because you haven’t been eating the rest of the day), then perhaps it could help, but working out after fasting sounds pretty brutal. Here you go: |
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: No. |
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I've been doing intermittent fasting (16:8 protocol) pretty consistently for almost 2 years now. Combined with solid training and good nutrition (which I had been doing previously), I have experienced a significant reduction in body fat. While my body weight has stayed the same, I have become quite a bit leaner and stronger. Your mileage may vary. Check out leangains.com if you want to read up more on it. That said, you better believe I'm throwing down food all day if I'm doing some sort of major objective. |
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Do other life forms on this planet fast? |
Joe Garibay wrote: Lots of predators only manage a few meals a week. |
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I've been doing it for about a month and I'm down 3.5 lbs. I've actually found this to be the easiest diet strategy to follow. I tend to binge in the evening, so not eating all day helps to mitigate the negative effects of the evening binge. I think to actually lose weight as opposed to maintain weight (albeit with less fat and more muscle mass) the key is to combine the fast with a calorie reduction. I try to get a visual estimate of body fat percentage (e.g. https://www.ruled.me/visually-estimate-body-fat-percentage/; https://www.builtlean.com/2012/09/24/body-fat-percentage-men-women/), then estimate lean body mass from that. Then, I use an online calculator (e.g. https://www.precisionnutrition.com/weight-loss-calculator) to figure out how many calories I need to lose weight and just shoot for that number of calories within a shorter window. I've heard that you generally see the best results if you exercise right before your first meal. This study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20837645 demonstrated that exercise in a fasted state significantly improved insulin resistance and mitigated weight gain on a high fat, high calorie diet. In spite of this, it does suck to work out in a fasted state. In terms of climbing, I suspect the best option is to fast on rest days or at least non-climbing day. |
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The guy who initially made me interested in fasting was Dr. Mosely (UK guy) who had 2 segments on PBS about 4 or 5 years ago. He has a web site on fasting: https://thefastdiet.co.uk/. For weight loss, especially visceral fat, he recommend a 5:2 schedule every week, with a fasting period of 36 hours. His fast is not a true fast but minimal calories fro the two days. You can read about it on his web site. He then started studying exercise regimens and recommends HIT for aerobic and strength. Anecdotal studies show that performing HIT (not endurance) during fasting, burns more fat. He has separate web site for that: https://www.fast-exercises.com/. There is a lot of information on the benefits of fasting and a very good documentary on Amazon: The Science of Fasting. Not a lot of lab research money going into it, since the benefits hurt the pharma revenue stream. Most of the studies by gerontology centers and universities. |
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Good info on the Joe Rogan podcast with Dr Rhonda Patrick on the health/long term benefits, seems like there are some pretty consistent results from a bunch of recent studies. on a practical level I've been trying this on and off for a while, the biggest difference I notice is that I'm definitely better fat adapted, I can go all day without eating and not feel the effects, at least for one day, and boy, does eating a good meal feel awesome after a full day without! Hard to tell if I get leaner, I'm one skinny dude no matter what I eat, I do seem to be less sore in general, seems like I heal better if more resources go to healing, not digesting.. |
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Pubmed is just a clearinghouse for research papers. Plenty of it is pseudoscience. Plenty of it is bomber. You have to be able to properly evaluate medical research at a nuts and bolts level to know which is which. Even the best journals publish crappy studies pretty regularly. Personally, I've done IF for about 15 years for weight management. It wasn't a thing back then, but I figured it out on my own. Regular dieting didn't work for me because I was ALWAYS hungry. Going to bed hungry was extra miserable. Figured I could suffer through the day, eat a big meal and have an evening reprieve from the constant hunger. Turned out I was right. Lost 30 lbs in a month or two and have pretty much kept it off. I fast from dinner to dinner. Days when I climb after work and before dinner, I can go hard for 2-3 hours after 24 hours of fasting. Really no big difference in how I perform. When I've gone off it (twice), I gain weight pretty steadily until I'm about 15-20lbs heavier. I just don't have the self control to not eat too much. Back to the diet and weight pours off effortlessly. Benefits for a normal weight person? As someone science-y who knows just enough to evaluate medical literature, the jury is definitely out. Some of the science shows some anti-inflamatory stuff, maybe protective against some cancers, maybe management/prevention of diabetes, probably some protective cardiovascular benefits. Some animal studies show it has the anti-aging benefits of severe caloric restriction without the drawback of turning you into a walking skeleton. All these things are kinda related through metabolic paths/inflammatory response, so it makes some sense. The good news is it's almost certainly not gonna hurt you, so you're free to experiment. Besides the "is it good science?" part, it makes you aware of what you eat. I can't load up on processed carbs and get through 24 hours without feeling like crap from the huge blood sugar spike and crash. If I eat lots of veggies and protein and fat and whole grains, though, I feel awesome. And it's nice how it frees you up. Being able to burn fat for fuel is super convenient. There's way less urgency to eating. I'm not wasting time finding breakfast or lunch, which means I can go out for a walk or run at noon instead of scarfing food at my desk. Even after a full day without food, my stomach is empty, but I don't feel any urgent need to eat. And then dinner rolls around. Oh god, the feeling of eating 2500 calories in one sitting after a full day without food and a couple hours of hard climbing? UNREAL. Tricks to it? STICK TO THE PLAN. There's metabolic magic going on. It takes a while before you settle into "this is normal" mode. At that point, going 24 hours without food is really pretty easy. However, if I violate the rules by even a little, I wind up feeling horrible. On weekends when I'm around my wife and kids eating breakfast, I'll sometimes make the mistake of eating like 200 calories of pancakes. I'll be hangry the rest of the day after that. Also seems to make me sensitive to electrolytes. In the summer, I can get really woozy on a long day of climbing even if I'm well hydrated. I'm not eating food, so I'm not getting a constant supply of salt. That's easily fixed by taking some electrolyte tablets or drinking some zero calorie powdered sports drink. |
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IF make sense to me at a basic level. Eating all day is a first world thing. |
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climbing friend, all your fast are belong to me |
Dana Bartlett wrote: Sorry professor, I didn't have time to read hundreds of articles. Or even sift through hundreds of abstracts. I never said you were wrong or discounted your idea of checking pubmed. I was curious if enough people had tried it to warrant a deeper look. Funny thing about this one, nobody anywhere seems to be selling anything. Is there a diet that both thickens skin and improves sense of humor? |
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I tried a 20:4 high-protein (200+ g/day) diet for about a month to beat back some creeping weight gain. Lost about 10 pounds. I was surprised that I wasn't hungrier, but I generally wasn't. A few times, I felt like my blood sugar was starting to suffer around the 16-18 hour mark, so I had a protein snack. The liver can convert amino acids to glucose to maintain blood sugar while you mostly burn fat for energy needs. I didn't notice much difference either way on strength training or climbing. Be careful with endurance exercise though; I seriously bonked on a long bike ride. Also, it really made me aware of when and why I eat, and how often it's not hunger-driven. I snack because I'm passing through the kitchen, and it's a habit. I'd call it a successful experiment. I'll go back to it the next time my weight creeps up. |
Tim Lutz wrote: The way I look at it, is to just eat normally and enough to sustain yourself. This is easy for me to say because I have a fast metabolism and the problem is often not over eating but eating enough. As far as other life, yes, dogs will eat a lot and are bread out of nature so they don’t count. Wildlife is accustomed to having to go long durations without food, not by choice. I feel they would eat regularly if they could. So if, as a human, you feel you need to fast then I think you’ll be fine. Just don’t take it to extremes. My problem with dieting is that I see too many people, mostly women, that will bounce from one diet to another, constantly changing their eating habits. This too me is dangerous and is a good way to induce some new kind of allergy or ailment from eating foods. Keep it simple. Balanced and varied diet. Eat what you burn. Easier said than done. |
