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DMM Pivot Belay Device

Original Post
Hayden Brown · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 0

Looking at picking one up to replace my ATC Guide. Is it worth the money or should I just keep the ATC Guide 

Mike Palasek · · Columbus, OH · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

I use my pivot outside summer and winter. It is very smooth lowering and paying out slack. I have used both the pivot and the atc guide. I prefer the pivot. It does all things well.

Jeremy Bauman · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,047

If your ATC Guide isn't worn out, I'd say it isn't worth it. FWIW, I prefer the orientation of the autoblock loop on the ATC Guide over the Reverso/Pivot. If I were replacing a worn device, I'd buy the Be-Up from Climb Tech (super smooth). 

Hayden Brown · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

I was noticing the orientation of the loop on the BD Guide vs. Petzl and the Pivot. Wonder why they do this... legal design reasons, or do they think its better?

mike again · · Ouray · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 47

The pivot is superior IMO. It is worth buying one if you use it in guide mode frequently, and especially if you feel you would benefit from the ability to easily lower second(s) from time to time - this is in my eyes the primary distinction for the pivot. If you don't use guide mode a lot, this might not be important for you.

FWIW, I use guide mode most of the time on multi pitch, and especially when I climb with my kids I value the easy lowering very highly, so I'm a devotee of this device. 

Mike Palasek · · Columbus, OH · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

I have a Be-up, atc guide, reverso, and pivot. In my use, I find the pivot the smoothest.

r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0

Fellow ATC guide user, I don't think it's worth the money for a slight variation of something we already have.

It might be a bit better in guide mode - but if guide mode was important to me I'd have gotten a King gigi already.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Then why get an ATC Guide in the first place? :/

TBH I don’t get why anyone uses Guides anymore. The Pivot is superior in every way and solves a huge design flaw with Guide mode devices that had resulted in quite a few dropped climbers.  I guess I’d get it if they were expensive, but it’s what...$20/$30?  No more expensive than a Guide/Reverso and totally worth it IMO.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424

Nobody has been super clear about this yet: lowering with the ATC Guide in guide mode is pretty sketchy. I did it once, and would not do it again without a Prusik backup. The problem is basically that the "sweet spot" is too narrow: if you don't go far enough, your climber won't budge, and if you go too far, they're freefalling, and the difference between these on an ATC Guide is very small. The DMM Pivot was invented to fix this problem. Basically, the pivoting D ring allows the device to turn so that the sweet spot for lowering is a lot wider.

I think it's reasonable to assume that if you use guide mode enough, you're eventually going to end up in a situation where the easiest way out would be to lower. So I'd definitely choose the Pivot over the ATC Guide if you use guide mode.

I haven't used a Be Up, maybe they've solved the lowering in guide mode problem a different way.

r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0
Ted Pinson wrote:

Then why get an ATC Guide in the first place? :/

Yeah...Good question.

It main use is when I have two seconds climbing simultaneously. Those days it's quite handy, and does the job well enough.

But those days aren't often enough to warrant me buying buying another piece of climbing gear to achieve what I already achieve. Sure, with a pivot maybe things a a tad bit nicer.

Now suppose I spent a lot of time pulling rope through in guide mode, say if I guided. Then I'd be attracted to the (apparently) much easier albeit single purpose Gigi.

Lowering with an atc-g is both rare enough and functional enough that I can just live with it. It's a bit of a fuck around, but can be done safely enough for me to be happy.

Now if I lost my ATC-G I'd certainly be looking at the pivot..

Andrew Yasso · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 215

I used an ATC Guide or Reverso for the last 8 years roughly 200 days a year. After playing with a Pivot that a client of mine had, I was impressed enough to switch over to the Pivot. I've found that lowering with the "carabiner in the nose" technique is really only successful for lowers of less than 10 feet with an ATC Guide/Reverso, otherwise you're better off switching to a different technique (if you know it) for longer lowers. With the Pivot, I would say I am comfortable lowering 25 feet before changing to a different technique, a significant difference.  

Could you theoretically lower someone 200 feet with the carabiner in the nose technique? Sure - but as others have pointed out it is incredible difficult to do smoothly and often just scares our climbers more than necessary. The only real reason I get to practice lowering this way often is because I'm teaching new climbers so much and I find it incredibly important to know how to do if you plan on belaying in guide mode. When I teach it, I describe it as appropriate if I need to lower someone ~5 feet and they can't unweight the rope. Beyond 5 feet, I teach them to either escape the belay and lower off a munter, or how to apply a friction hitch back up, redirect the rope, and unweight the belay device with their body weight via a redirected sling attached to the nose of the belay device. 

Outside of teaching people lowering while still in guide mode, I find I actually lower maybe 1 in 1000 belay. The key to not lowering so much while in guide mode is picking appropriate routes for your partners, and knowing alternative systems. Set yourself up for success. So ultimately is the Pivot necessary for this 1 in 1000? No - but I sure do like it and DMM has nice anodizing. 

On a side note, I think the "vertical" hole on a Black Diamond ATC-Guide orients the device to hang better off a 3-piece anchor (often trad), whereas the "horizontal" hole on the Petzl Reverso orients the device to hang better off a 2-piece anchor (often bolts). It's just a theory, but I think the companies are making their devices to suit the more common anchor types in their geographical places of origin.

Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 448

The BD recommended method can be found in their documentation, which is available on their website here: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwc035a6a1/instructions/S16_Instructions/M10798_B_ATCGuide_IS-WEB.pdf

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Kyle Tarry wrote:

There several safe ways to lower a climber in guide mode on a normal ATC.  None of them involve trying to find the lowering "sweet spot" of the ATC.  If you are trying to use the friction in the ATC as the lowering control, and you are trying to regulate that friction by overriding guide mode, then you are doing it wrong.  Based  on your description of "if you go too far, they're freefalling", it certainly sounds like you were doing it this (incorrect) way.  The two recommended techniques are:

  • Lower climber with a separate friction hitch (e.g. munter hitch) while completely defeating guide mode via the nose hole in the belay device.  In this case you are 100% depending on the munter to do the lowering, the rope is just passing freely through the ATC.  This shouldn't be sketchy at all, as it is simply lowering with a munter where the rope happens to pass through an open ATC on its way to the climber.  This is the technique recommended by BD and clearly described in their instructions.
  • Defeat the guide mode by redirecting the strand going to the climber, and lower by using the belay device essentially the same as you would if you were lowering a climber on toprope from your harness.  Doing this may require also redirecting the brake strand to get sufficient friction.  I'd probably use a backup or catastrophe knot on this one, as it's a little different than the way we normally use the device and you don't want any surprises.

The BD recommended method can be found in their documentation, which is available on their website here: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwc035a6a1/instructions/S16_Instructions/M10798_B_ATCGuide_IS-WEB.pdf

(BTW, I use a Pivot and think it's awesome, but there is zero reason you can't be completely 100% safe with a "regular" ATC, and lowering with it shouldn't be sketchy at all).

Kyle, note how both the recommendations from BD are not lowering in guide mode. We're essentially saying the same thing (the only difference is you suggested a munter instead of a Prusik, which is what I suggested--the Munter is definitely a better idea).

The Pivot allows you to lower with the device in roughly the same configuration as you would belay in guide mode--unlike with the ATC Guide this is an approved use (see diagrams 9a-9d in the Pivot's manual). No Munter, prusik, or backup is required or suggested, and you don't need to switch to TR belay.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424

Okay, you call those things guide mode, I don't, but that's just semantics. It's not a particularly interesting discussion.

Yes, I lowered incorrectly once, years ago. I was a noob and I learned from my mistake. I'm not sure what about saying something is sketchy and that I wouldn't do it again indicates I think it's the right way to do things.

Why is it important to you that I say admit I made a mistake? Don't you have better things to do than follow me around waiting for me to make a mistake so you can correct me? For someone who complains about me arguing, you sure seem to be trying hard to start an argument.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Kyle Tarry wrote:

That simply cannot be done with a prusik; you can't take a prusik with the full weight of a climber hanging from it and slide it along the rope (that's literally the opposite of how a prusik is supposed to work).  To demonstrate this, tie a prusik around a rope, hang your full weight from that prusik, and then try to slide the prusik down the rope (to self-lower).

When I lowered too fast, I stopped and added a Prusik, and it worked okay, because it was behind the guide mode device, which held the weight of the climber. The Prusik only catches if you lower too fast. But it was annoying to manage.

JRZane · · Jersey · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 95

putting in my support for Pivot.  Bought one at the beginning of this season, bought one for my P for Xmas.

Smooth paying, catching, and safe lowering in Guide. Worth the extra $10.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Kyle Tarry wrote:

I take issue with you then taking this example and using it as justification for "lowering with an ATC in guide mode is sketchy" and "DMM pivot is safer."  The fact that you don't know how to do it doesn't make it sketchy.  It makes you sketchy.  Your experience has nearly zero bearing on the actual safety of the devices when used properly.  Lowering with an ATC Guide is totally, completely, 100% safe, if you do it right.

You're posting incorrect information about a very critical high consequences activity on the internet on a public forum that other people will read for many years to come.  I apologize if trying to keep other people safe from your lack of experience offends you.

Which of my dangerous claims are you saving future generations from? Is it "lowering with the ATC in guide mode is sketchy" or "DMM pivot is safer"?

Note that we completely agree on how the devices should be used.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Kyle Tarry wrote:

That's definitely an improvement over the first way you tried.  If you want to do it this way, I would highly recommend redirecting the brake stand up to the shelf so that you get good braking action on the teeth of the ATC, because the normal guide mode orientation doesn't allow for as much braking power.  Nonetheless, I would suggest that the BD recommended way is far safer and easier to manage, because you put 100% of the load onto an easily controllable munter, and don't need to depend on the ATC guide to provide braking force (which is difficult and sensitive to angle, as you learned).  When using this method, where the secondary hitch takes 100% of the load, a prusik will not work at all because the load is too high.

I wouldn't use the Prusik now. I use the Pivot, and while I've never had to lower with it in a real situation, lowering with it is one of the things I practice occasionally, and I'm fairly comfortable with it. If I were using the ATC Guide I think I'd just belay off the harness with a redirect to begin with, as I'm more comfortable with that (I do this rather than guide mode with the Pivot, too, since it makes rope management easier in some situations).

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424
Kyle Tarry wrote:

Both.  I disagree with your suggested lowering scheme, which is incorrect and (I think) dangerous.

I did not "suggest" the wrong lowering scheme, I described the wrong lowering scheme as "sketchy" and said I would not do it.

I also think that stating "lowering with an ATC is sketchy" is false and should be corrected, because it's important that people understand that there is a correct and totally safe way to do this, should the need arise.  Self rescue skills and knowledge are extremely important.

To be clear, in context, what I was saying is that lowering with an ATC Guide in guide mode is sketchy.

There's a perfectly safe way to lower in this situation. I'd call this bypassing guide mode to lower, but if you want to call it lowering in guide mode I'm not hung up on the terminology difference.

You have posted, multiple times, about using friction through the device with a prusik backup, which is not the way BD recommends and not the way I think it should be used.

I have posted, multiple times, that the method is sketchy and that I would not do it. I have now posted, multiple times, that I don't believe it to be the correct way. Simply describing a method of lowering doesn't mean I think it's the right way, especially when I explicitly said I don't think it's the right way. You're just misrepresenting what I said.

You posted some incorrect stuff, I posted links to manufacturer-recommended procedures in a non-argumentative way, and somehow we've already filled up a page with your ridiculous bickering. 

Misrepresenting my opinions so you can correct me on things I didn't say isn't non-argumentative. If you want to be seen as non-argumentative, read my posts a bit more charitably and ask for clarification if you suspect that there might be a miscommunication.

 Do you not see that the common denominator in all of these asinine threads is you?

I accept responsibility for my half of this unpleasantness, but there is a second common denominator here, Kyle. I'd rather not have these arguments, but I'd also rather not have people misrepresent my opinions publicly. I would really rather not have people accuse me of saying dangerous things that I did not say. You can keep doing that, but it's not rational to expect different results from what you've gotten so far.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 424

Back on topic: I've tried the Pivot with a few different carabiners, and the DMM recommended Rhino carabiner really does work better than other options. I especially like the Rhino for guide mode belay.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
Kyle Tarry wrote:

Has a climber been dropped when being lowered PROPERLY in guide mode, or are all the accidents a result of people using it improperly?  I would suspect the latter, because if you do it properly it's no different than lowering someone with a munter or a toprope belay, both of which are extremely commonly done and totally safe.

There several safe ways to lower a climber in guide mode on a normal ATC.  None of them involve trying to find the lowering "sweet spot" of the ATC.  If you are trying to use the friction in the ATC as the lowering control, and you are trying to regulate that friction by overriding guide mode, then you are doing it wrong.  Based  on your description of "if you go too far, they're freefalling", it certainly sounds like you were doing it this (incorrect) way.  The two recommended techniques are:

  • Lower climber with a separate friction hitch (e.g. munter hitch) while completely defeating guide mode via the nose hole in the belay device.  In this case you are 100% depending on the munter to do the lowering, the rope is just passing freely through the ATC.  This shouldn't be sketchy at all, as it is simply lowering with a munter where the rope happens to pass through an open ATC on its way to the climber.  This is the technique recommended by BD and clearly described in their instructions.
  • Defeat the guide mode by redirecting the strand going to the climber, and lower by using the belay device essentially the same as you would if you were lowering a climber on toprope from your harness.  Doing this may require also redirecting the brake strand to get sufficient friction.  I'd probably use a backup or catastrophe knot on this one, as it's a little different than the way we normally use the device and you don't want any surprises.

The BD recommended method can be found in their documentation, which is available on their website here: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwc035a6a1/instructions/S16_Instructions/M10798_B_ATCGuide_IS-WEB.pdf

(BTW, I use a Pivot and think it's awesome, but there is zero reason you can't be completely 100% safe with a "regular" ATC, and lowering with it shouldn't be sketchy at all).

As far as I know they were all user error, and your point is well taken; however, I would argue the relative complexity and number of steps involved in lowering using an ATC Guide compared to a Pivot makes those user errors more likely.  Isn’t there an engineering maxim about the number of steps and likelihood of an error?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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