DMM Pivot Belay Device
|
Looking at picking one up to replace my ATC Guide. Is it worth the money or should I just keep the ATC Guide |
|
I use my pivot outside summer and winter. It is very smooth lowering and paying out slack. I have used both the pivot and the atc guide. I prefer the pivot. It does all things well. |
|
If your ATC Guide isn't worn out, I'd say it isn't worth it. FWIW, I prefer the orientation of the autoblock loop on the ATC Guide over the Reverso/Pivot. If I were replacing a worn device, I'd buy the Be-Up from Climb Tech (super smooth). |
|
I was noticing the orientation of the loop on the BD Guide vs. Petzl and the Pivot. Wonder why they do this... legal design reasons, or do they think its better? |
|
The pivot is superior IMO. It is worth buying one if you use it in guide mode frequently, and especially if you feel you would benefit from the ability to easily lower second(s) from time to time - this is in my eyes the primary distinction for the pivot. If you don't use guide mode a lot, this might not be important for you. |
|
I have a Be-up, atc guide, reverso, and pivot. In my use, I find the pivot the smoothest. |
|
Fellow ATC guide user, I don't think it's worth the money for a slight variation of something we already have. It might be a bit better in guide mode - but if guide mode was important to me I'd have gotten a King gigi already. |
|
Then why get an ATC Guide in the first place? :/ TBH I don’t get why anyone uses Guides anymore. The Pivot is superior in every way and solves a huge design flaw with Guide mode devices that had resulted in quite a few dropped climbers. I guess I’d get it if they were expensive, but it’s what...$20/$30? No more expensive than a Guide/Reverso and totally worth it IMO. |
|
Nobody has been super clear about this yet: lowering with the ATC Guide in guide mode is pretty sketchy. I did it once, and would not do it again without a Prusik backup. The problem is basically that the "sweet spot" is too narrow: if you don't go far enough, your climber won't budge, and if you go too far, they're freefalling, and the difference between these on an ATC Guide is very small. The DMM Pivot was invented to fix this problem. Basically, the pivoting D ring allows the device to turn so that the sweet spot for lowering is a lot wider. I think it's reasonable to assume that if you use guide mode enough, you're eventually going to end up in a situation where the easiest way out would be to lower. So I'd definitely choose the Pivot over the ATC Guide if you use guide mode. I haven't used a Be Up, maybe they've solved the lowering in guide mode problem a different way. |
|
Ted Pinson wrote: Yeah...Good question. It main use is when I have two seconds climbing simultaneously. Those days it's quite handy, and does the job well enough. But those days aren't often enough to warrant me buying buying another piece of climbing gear to achieve what I already achieve. Sure, with a pivot maybe things a a tad bit nicer. Now suppose I spent a lot of time pulling rope through in guide mode, say if I guided. Then I'd be attracted to the (apparently) much easier albeit single purpose Gigi. Lowering with an atc-g is both rare enough and functional enough that I can just live with it. It's a bit of a fuck around, but can be done safely enough for me to be happy. Now if I lost my ATC-G I'd certainly be looking at the pivot.. |
|
I used an ATC Guide or Reverso for the last 8 years roughly 200 days a year. After playing with a Pivot that a client of mine had, I was impressed enough to switch over to the Pivot. I've found that lowering with the "carabiner in the nose" technique is really only successful for lowers of less than 10 feet with an ATC Guide/Reverso, otherwise you're better off switching to a different technique (if you know it) for longer lowers. With the Pivot, I would say I am comfortable lowering 25 feet before changing to a different technique, a significant difference. Could you theoretically lower someone 200 feet with the carabiner in the nose technique? Sure - but as others have pointed out it is incredible difficult to do smoothly and often just scares our climbers more than necessary. The only real reason I get to practice lowering this way often is because I'm teaching new climbers so much and I find it incredibly important to know how to do if you plan on belaying in guide mode. When I teach it, I describe it as appropriate if I need to lower someone ~5 feet and they can't unweight the rope. Beyond 5 feet, I teach them to either escape the belay and lower off a munter, or how to apply a friction hitch back up, redirect the rope, and unweight the belay device with their body weight via a redirected sling attached to the nose of the belay device. Outside of teaching people lowering while still in guide mode, I find I actually lower maybe 1 in 1000 belay. The key to not lowering so much while in guide mode is picking appropriate routes for your partners, and knowing alternative systems. Set yourself up for success. So ultimately is the Pivot necessary for this 1 in 1000? No - but I sure do like it and DMM has nice anodizing. On a side note, I think the "vertical" hole on a Black Diamond ATC-Guide orients the device to hang better off a 3-piece anchor (often trad), whereas the "horizontal" hole on the Petzl Reverso orients the device to hang better off a 2-piece anchor (often bolts). It's just a theory, but I think the companies are making their devices to suit the more common anchor types in their geographical places of origin. |
|
The BD recommended method can be found in their documentation, which is available on their website here: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwc035a6a1/instructions/S16_Instructions/M10798_B_ATCGuide_IS-WEB.pdf |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: Kyle, note how both the recommendations from BD are not lowering in guide mode. We're essentially saying the same thing (the only difference is you suggested a munter instead of a Prusik, which is what I suggested--the Munter is definitely a better idea). The Pivot allows you to lower with the device in roughly the same configuration as you would belay in guide mode--unlike with the ATC Guide this is an approved use (see diagrams 9a-9d in the Pivot's manual). No Munter, prusik, or backup is required or suggested, and you don't need to switch to TR belay. |
|
Okay, you call those things guide mode, I don't, but that's just semantics. It's not a particularly interesting discussion. Yes, I lowered incorrectly once, years ago. I was a noob and I learned from my mistake. I'm not sure what about saying something is sketchy and that I wouldn't do it again indicates I think it's the right way to do things. Why is it important to you that I say admit I made a mistake? Don't you have better things to do than follow me around waiting for me to make a mistake so you can correct me? For someone who complains about me arguing, you sure seem to be trying hard to start an argument. |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: When I lowered too fast, I stopped and added a Prusik, and it worked okay, because it was behind the guide mode device, which held the weight of the climber. The Prusik only catches if you lower too fast. But it was annoying to manage. |
|
putting in my support for Pivot. Bought one at the beginning of this season, bought one for my P for Xmas. Smooth paying, catching, and safe lowering in Guide. Worth the extra $10. |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: Which of my dangerous claims are you saving future generations from? Is it "lowering with the ATC in guide mode is sketchy" or "DMM pivot is safer"? Note that we completely agree on how the devices should be used. |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: I wouldn't use the Prusik now. I use the Pivot, and while I've never had to lower with it in a real situation, lowering with it is one of the things I practice occasionally, and I'm fairly comfortable with it. If I were using the ATC Guide I think I'd just belay off the harness with a redirect to begin with, as I'm more comfortable with that (I do this rather than guide mode with the Pivot, too, since it makes rope management easier in some situations). |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: I did not "suggest" the wrong lowering scheme, I described the wrong lowering scheme as "sketchy" and said I would not do it.
To be clear, in context, what I was saying is that lowering with an ATC Guide in guide mode is sketchy. There's a perfectly safe way to lower in this situation. I'd call this bypassing guide mode to lower, but if you want to call it lowering in guide mode I'm not hung up on the terminology difference.
I have posted, multiple times, that the method is sketchy and that I would not do it. I have now posted, multiple times, that I don't believe it to be the correct way. Simply describing a method of lowering doesn't mean I think it's the right way, especially when I explicitly said I don't think it's the right way. You're just misrepresenting what I said.
Misrepresenting my opinions so you can correct me on things I didn't say isn't non-argumentative. If you want to be seen as non-argumentative, read my posts a bit more charitably and ask for clarification if you suspect that there might be a miscommunication.
I accept responsibility for my half of this unpleasantness, but there is a second common denominator here, Kyle. I'd rather not have these arguments, but I'd also rather not have people misrepresent my opinions publicly. I would really rather not have people accuse me of saying dangerous things that I did not say. You can keep doing that, but it's not rational to expect different results from what you've gotten so far. |
|
Back on topic: I've tried the Pivot with a few different carabiners, and the DMM recommended Rhino carabiner really does work better than other options. I especially like the Rhino for guide mode belay. |
|
Kyle Tarry wrote: As far as I know they were all user error, and your point is well taken; however, I would argue the relative complexity and number of steps involved in lowering using an ATC Guide compared to a Pivot makes those user errors more likely. Isn’t there an engineering maxim about the number of steps and likelihood of an error? |