Another tie-in knot discussion

So as far as I'm aware of, the two standard tie-in knots are either some flavor of bowline or a fig 8. Recently issues with ring-loading on the tie-in knot have been brought up in a variety of different situations, and neither the figure 8 and bowline function very well under ring loading. In thinking of what knots function acceptably with ring loading, I remember that the alpine butterfly can handle loads in all 3 directions acceptably.

So, when I thought that it might be worth fiddling and experimenting with the alpine butterfly, I figured I probably wasn't the first person to think about this, and that somebody had probably already done all of this tinkering and experimenting. So, assuming this has already been done, why don't use it as a tie-in knot. I figure that there must be something wrong with it otherwise it would be more common. 

Here's what I can think of, but I'm curious about other people's thoughts about downsides:

It would take a bit more creativity to tie in with it, than with a figure 8 follow through. 

I'm sure some people will argue that it's more complex. However, I think that the same could be said about using a bowline, belaying with a gri-gri, or really learning anything new, those are all considered (by most) to be acceptable practices. So I'm not sure I really buy the reasoning behind this argument

You get all the funny looks at the crag for being different

On the flip side, you get these:

Easier to untie than a fig 8 after whipping on that gnar project

Immune to ringloading

Get attention at the crag and a chance to spray about your new knot that everybody should try

I know there are a lot of smart people posting here and even more smart people out there just lurking. Enlighten me, please. 

eli poss wrote:

Get attention at the crag and a chance to spray about your new knot that everybody should try

This.  Except you're looking for attention on MP first.

Alpine Butterfly...Bwahahahaha.

wouldn't you be adding just another piece of gear that can fail?  You'd need a biner from knot to belay loop to attach it to yourself. I guess you can also say you're adding in two extra things that can fail, a belay loop and biner, however unlikely for it to fail, still adding two more links that could.  Also, that'd put a lot of wear on your belay loop if you're whipping on it all day... KISS.

For those of me who don't know (and can't seem to find it on Google), could you elaborate on what ring loading is?

eli poss wrote:

So as far as I'm aware of, the two standard tie-in knots are either some flavor of bowline or a fig 8. Recently issues with ring-loading on the tie-in knot have been brought up in a variety of different situations, and neither the figure 8 and bowline function very well under ring loading. In thinking of what knots function acceptably with ring loading, I remember that the alpine butterfly can handle loads in all 3 directions acceptably.

So, when I thought that it might be worth fiddling and experimenting with the alpine butterfly, I figured I probably wasn't the first person to think about this, and that somebody had probably already done all of this tinkering and experimenting. So, assuming this has already been done, why don't use it as a tie-in knot. I figure that there must be something wrong with it otherwise it would be more common. 

Here's what I can think of, but I'm curious about other people's thoughts about downsides:

It would take a bit more creativity to tie in with it, than with a figure 8 follow through. 

I'm sure some people will argue that it's more complex. However, I think that the same could be said about using a bowline, belaying with a gri-gri, or really learning anything new, those are all considered (by most) to be acceptable practices. So I'm not sure I really buy the reasoning behind this argument

You get all the funny looks at the crag for being different

On the flip side, you get these:

Easier to untie than a fig 8 after whipping on that gnar project

Immune to ringloading

Get attention at the crag and a chance to spray about your new knot that everybody should try

I know there are a lot of smart people posting here and even more smart people out there just lurking. Enlighten me, please. 

What is "ring loading"?

climbing friend,

doez anyone have knowingz of the peoplez tyin in with only an overhand knot?

I am climbing with strongman once who haz done much of his climbing around Mexico City areas, and he would tie in only with this overhand when ascending the 13+ or 14-. Of course I am much stronger and better looking than he, but I find his ways quite curious. 

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

doez anyone have knowingz of the peoplez tyin in with only an overhand knot?

I think you're talking about the competition knot. I've only seen one person use it, but it seemed to work well enough.

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

doez anyone have knowingz of the peoplez tyin in with only an overhand knot?

One of my early partners used an overhand exclusively. At the time he had been climbing 40+ years. 

A butterfly is definitely not easier to untie than a figure 8 when it has been loaded and weakens the rope more than a figure 8. It is useful as a tie-in for the middle climber in a party of 3 on one rope, as well as for working around a cut rope, and anchors.

It will untie itself, it's not that stable. This is not an issue when you tie in the middle of a rope with essentially infinite tails on both sides. 

For example tie a fig-8 loosely with a short tail and jostle it all you want and it will be fine. At worse the tail could come out of the final part of the follow through, but the knot is still good to something like 80% of the normal strength in that configuration (citation needed, it's on the internet somewhere). Do that w/ alpine butterfly and the whole knot falls apart.

For those of you who who don't know the term ring loading, here's a picture. The yellow arrows show ring loading.

@ Gunkiemike, that comment and the one about getting funny looks were just jokes. My intention is curiosity and seeking knowledge, not to just spray all over MP

@ Ice4 life, I'm talking about tying in directly, not using a carabiner. This is where the "creativity" comes in and probably no small amount of spacial reasoning to figure out how to tie in with it

@ Chris In my experience an alpine butterfly is easier to untie than fig 8 on a bight after being loaded. Since a figure 8 follow through is the exact same knot as a figure 8 on a bight, I would assume the alpine butterfly would still be easier to untie

@nathanael Is that just speculation or is there information to back up that claim. As far as I'm aware of, there isn't enough information to make a claim either way. Does anybody have information on this?

Thanks y'all for indulging my curiosity. I like to think I know a lot but I'm always trying to learn more about climbing.

Is there an accident report I missed where a figure 8 failed, or is this a solution in need of a problem?

There is a good reason not to - when tying it by retreading instead of the normal hand wrap, which you have to do if you don't want to use a carabiner, it's easy to tie an imposter knot that isn't safe and very hard to notice the difference.

 http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflybend.html

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Is it easier to untie?  I don't know of anybody whipping on a butterfly, so is this a conclusion we can safely draw?

Is ring loading really a scenario that we need to be worried about?  Is it easier to simply not ring load your tie-in knot?  Are there regular, normal situations where ring loading your knot is necessary AND the loads are high enough to make it a concern?  Before we go on a hunt for a knot that can hold up to this, we should make sure it's actually a problem.  I am struggling to think of scenarios where this is an issue but I definitely could be missing something.

I can't say I know of anybody who has whipped on an alpine butterfly, but that assumption was made based off my experience with untying both fig 8 on a bight and alpine butterflies that had been heavily loaded. 

As for the ring loading thing, I like your suspicion and critical thinking. I'm not a huge fan myself of solutions looking for a problem. But, I can think of two different scenarios off the top of my head where a tie-in knot may be ring loaded. I will admit these scenarios are not exactly common or conventional but they are both scenarios I have encountered, one of them quite frequently:

1) Constructing the "rgold rope anchor" without the use of an alpine butterfly direct isolation loop. What would be clipped to the alpine butterfly would instead be clipped to the tie-in knot.

2) My personal tether is constructed of a strand of half rope and a kong slyde. It is tied into my hard point with a figure 8 and yosemite finish. Every now and then, I find myself in situations where I want to clip into something short using my belay loop. However, sometimes the belay loop is 1-2  inches away from where I want to clip it (ie it doesn't reach) and I choose to instead clip into the figure 8 tie-in of my personal tether which is a little bit bigger or longer than my belay loop. 

Edit: Here's a picture of what I'm talking about:

eli poss wrote:

@nathanael Is that just speculation or is there information to back up that claim. As far as I'm aware of, there isn't enough information to make a claim either way. Does anybody have information on this?

"Information"..? I didn't really make any bold claims, just looked at how the knots behave in my hands. Surely any number of knots are strong enough, but the practical considerations like "does it seem like this could untied while I'm climbing" seem like the most important ones.

Hang on one tied to your harness and bounce on it a few times see how it unties, then do the same with a figure 8... as to your concern about ring loading. I think a retraced bowline solves your problem too and is easier to untie than either an 8 or butterfly 

eli poss wrote:

Imagine you lead a route and your belayer wants to TR it. You get to the anchor and 1 bolt looks bomber but the other bolt looks kinda fishy. This is kind of scenario where I'll leave the last lead bolt clipped, just in case shit goes down. I like to keep 2 solid pieces between me and the hospital, when I can.  

You do have your moments, like up there;  but just tie-in with a big CONVENTIONAL knot to your harness  -  mmmK

 cross loading the loop of your tie-in knot is a non-issue,  mostly

. . . 

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Just clip it to your belay loop instead.  It's in the same place, it's about the same size, and it completely eliminates the ring loading problem.

Or tie the anchor the way RGold recommends...

I'm confused about this.  Isn't the whole point of the adjustable tether so you can tether with it at whatever distance you want?  Just use it.  Or clip to the belay loop.  Too short?  Chain 2 carabiners together (cue "no metal on metal!" panic).  Or clove in with the rope really close to the tie in knot.  It seems like there are lots of viable options here.

(Also, note that you forgot units, so I have no idea if we're talking about 1-2 inches, or mm, or meters).

Honestly, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

in scenario 1, I don't want to clip it to my belay loop because I want to be out of the system. If I clip it to my rope loop, the force gets directly transmitted to the anchor without loading my harness. This is more comfortable. 

In the scenario 2, I can't clip in that short in any other way. If I try to use the kong slyde, the plate takes up an inch or 2 and it doesn't run the entire length of my tether because I have an alpine butterfly tied between the figure 8 and the slyde plate. 

nathanael wrote:

"Information"..? I didn't really make any bold claims, just looked at how the knots behave in my hands. Surely any number of knots are strong enough, but the practical considerations like "does it seem like this could untied while I'm climbing" seem like the most important ones.

I'm more referring to something like the conventional wisdom that says: always tie a stopper knot when you're tying in with a bowline because it is well known to rattle loose. I don't know of any data or anecdata that's says that it either is or isn't prone to rattling loose. 

caughtinside wrote:

WTF is this about? Ring loading? What situation will create the dreaded cross load on your knot? 

Please read the thread before posting things like this. I already answered the question you asked. 

Edit: 

And for those of you who are still wondering, "what the fuck, why is this even coming up", the thought just kind of popped into my head today when a teacher who sucks at teaching was lecturing today in a really boring class. I think he was talking about risk factors for widows or something like that. I can't tell you why the thought popped into my head, but being the curious human being I am, I decided to explore the idea. 

Kyle Tarry wrote:

cue "no metal on metal!" panic

Yer gunna die!