advice on buying trail running shoes

Altras are bomb.com. Used to be strictly a Salomon guy until I got Altras. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Altras are bomb.com. Used to be strictly a Salomon guy until I got Altras. 

I don't know why people run in anything other than Altra. My wife runs trail 50k and 50 milers in them. The new Lone Peak 3.5s are sweet.

Merrell for minimalist, Altra for everything else. Anyone new to zero drop needs to let their calves adjust to it though.

David Kutassy wrote: Anyone new to zero drop needs to let their calves adjust to it though.

Anyone who claims that "zero drop" can be felt on anything other than completely flat surfaces like tracks and midwestern roads is clueless.

I am a trail runner also.  You need to replace them about every year anyway.  Just figure that in your budget.  They only last about 500-600 miles.  I wear Altra Lone peaks.  Great shoes!  But only for a year.  If you are wearing out the toes, you are definitely wearing out the soles!  

I have a similar problem but my running shoes always bust out by the pinkie toes, my toes splay out really wide when I run.  I've worn the Sportiva Mutants for the past 7 months and no bust-out, the fabric seems like pretty strong nylon and the entire shoe construction seems bomber.  I really like these shoes, despite a bigger heal-toe drop than I would want, the rubber is super sticky and Im happy doing some low 5th class scrambling, and awesome for the lose/rocky trails around Boulder area.  The aggressive lugs also hold well in snow/mud.   

sean o wrote:

Anyone who claims that "zero drop" can be felt on anything other than completely flat surfaces like tracks and midwestern roads is clueless.

You're totally clueless to make such a blanket statement. It entirely depends on what shoes you switched from and whether you heel strike vs mid foot strike. The new Altra shoes actually do well with either technique but zero drop is intended for mid foot strikes.

If you heel strike its hardly noticeable since you land on your heels and "roll" onto your toes. Unless its a minimalist shoe that will jar your knees apart for heel striking.

If you do run mid foot a 4mm drop is noticable but not to significantly different. If you are running with a mid foot strike then heel drop is useless to you.

I can't tell you how many people I know that gave up on Altra shoes without giving themselves time to adjust. Their calves will cramp and possibly get shin splints depending on the individual. Their muscles and running technique aren't adapted to a natural running stride with no heel drop.

David Kutassy wrote:

You're totally clueless to make such a blanket statement. It entirely depends on what shoes you switched from and whether you heel strike vs mid foot strike. The new Altra shoes actually do well with either technique but zero drop is intended for mid foot strikes.

Believe what you want.  I'm a mid-foot striker who has experimented with the "Born to Run" fads like Pose, and destroyed dozens of pairs of running shoes over the past decade.  Altra produces solidly mediocre shoes.

germsauce Epstein wrote:

I have a similar problem but my running shoes always bust out by the pinkie toes, my toes splay out really wide when I run.  I've worn the Sportiva Mutants for the past 7 months and no bust-out, the fabric seems like pretty strong nylon and the entire shoe construction seems bomber.  I really like these shoes, despite a bigger heal-toe drop than I would want, the rubber is super sticky and Im happy doing some low 5th class scrambling, and awesome for the lose/rocky trails around Boulder area.  The aggressive lugs also hold well in snow/mud.   

Get Altra shoes. Your toes are suppost to splay out when you run (or walk). The King MTs have a vibram sole thats good on rock. Altra's normal sole does kind of suck on rock especially when wet. Topo and Merrell are starting to make shoes with a wider toe box as well.

sean o wrote:

Believe what you want.  I'm a mid-foot striker who has experimented with the "Born to Run" fads like Pose, and destroyed dozens of pairs of running shoes over the past decade.  Altra produces solidly mediocre shoes.

Shoes are a pretty individual thing. You do need to find what works for you. However, the vast majority of people who switched disagree with you.

Most shoe shapes are clinging to century old fashion statements of high heels and a narrow toe box. Worn over a lifetime this neutralized the muscles in your feet and sweezes your toes together. A shoe should fit the natural shape of the human foot with some extra toe space so the toes splay. Zero drop lets you land on a push from your toes strenthening the muscles in your feet and gives you more room to engauge your calf muscles.

David Kutassy wrote:

Get Altra shoes. Your toes are suppost to splay out when you run (or walk). The King MTs have a vibram sole thats good on rock. Altra's normal sole does kind of suck on rock especially when wet. Topo and Merrell are starting to make shoes with a wider toe box as well.

I bought them that day.  Loving them so far, my toes are happy to spread out like they want to, they are nimble and have grip that's almost as good as the sportivas so far.  the sportivas are great, but were kind of wearing out anyway so the timing was ideal !  about 10 miles in, I can DEFINITELY feel the difference since this is my first time in zero drop, so i'm keeping runs shorter to give whatever muscle need it some time to adapt.  

David Kutassy wrote:

Shoes are a pretty individual thing. You do need to find what works for you. However, the vast majority of people who switched disagree with you.

Most shoe shapes are clinging to century old fashion statements of high heels and a narrow toe box. Worn over a lifetime this neutralized the muscles in your feet and sweezes your toes together. A shoe should fit the natural shape of the human foot with some extra toe space so the toes splay. Zero drop lets you land on a push from your toes strenthening the muscles in your feet and gives you more room to engauge your calf muscles.

Regarding toe space. People chronically size their running shoes too small IME which oftentimes resolves the toe space issues with shoes that have narrower toe boxes. I have a quiver and use my altras at times but on technical trails with sharp rocks I typically go for something a little more laterally stiff and a slightly firmer midsole. 

David Kutassy wrote:

Shoes are a pretty individual thing.

This is true, and people who care about their shoes should test-drive a variety of models.

Maybe Altra just doesn't cater to my needs.  Drop doesn't matter much on a trail shoe, since you're usually not running on perfectly flat surfaces.  Wide toe boxes increase movement between foot and shoe, which makes them imprecise on trails and dangerous on rock.  I want something that grips on mud and dirt, protects my feet, and doesn't squirm around on angled terrain.  It should grip the ground on class 2+, hug your foot on class 3+, and edge and smear predictably on class 4+.

I would probably like Altra's shoes if I mostly ran on well-manicured terrain like the foothill trails near Fort Collins.

sean o wrote:

This is true, and people who care about their shoes should test-drive a variety of models.

Maybe Altra just doesn't cater to my needs.  Drop doesn't matter much on a trail shoe, since you're usually not running on perfectly flat surfaces.  Wide toe boxes increase movement between foot and shoe, which makes them imprecise on trails and dangerous on rock.  I want something that grips on mud and dirt, protects my feet, and doesn't squirm around on angled terrain.  It should grip the ground on class 2+, hug your foot on class 3+, and edge and smear predictably on class 4+.

I would probably like Altra's shoes if I mostly ran on well-manicured terrain like the foothill trails near Fort Collins.

Sounds like you want an approach shoe not a trail running shoe.

I've used my Altra Lone Peak and Brooks Cascadia on some pretty fun technical trail running races.  However, I would not want to use them on class 4+  terrain, specifically because they are sized for trail running (I wear a 1 size 10 street shoe and my trail runner are size 11) and that specific sizing makes them not appropriate on class 4+ terrain.  Its kind of like wearing Miuras for multi-pitch slab, yes it can be done but it's not the best option.

I run on very rough/rocky desert trails, and I get shoes with as little mesh as possible around the sides/top.  They'll be heavier and maybe not breathe as well, but they last longer if you're scraping up against rocks.  I've had two pairs of Salomon XT wings and they've been great.  

(This is getting into the weeds, but...)

Daniel T wrote:

Sounds like you want an approach shoe not a trail running shoe.

Current "approach" shoes are pretty terrible in two ways: they have inflexible soles with no cushioning or foot protection, and they have dot rubber instead of real lugs.  This makes them uncomfortable for running, and unusable on slick surfaces like snow, mud, and grass.  They will climb better, but you're likely to spend only a small percentage of your day on serious terrain.  A carefully-chosen trail runner is usually a better option, and not much worse than Altras or minimalist shoes for general trail running.

sean o wrote:

This is true, and people who care about their shoes should test-drive a variety of models.

Maybe Altra just doesn't cater to my needs.  Drop doesn't matter much on a trail shoe, since you're usually not running on perfectly flat surfaces.  Wide toe boxes increase movement between foot and shoe, which makes them imprecise on trails and dangerous on rock.  I want something that grips on mud and dirt, protects my feet, and doesn't squirm around on angled terrain.  It should grip the ground on class 2+, hug your foot on class 3+, and edge and smear predictably on class 4+.

I would probably like Altra's shoes if I mostly ran on well-manicured terrain like the foothill trails near Fort Collins.

The newest Altra shoes are much better than they used to be. The Lone Peak 2.0 was a TERRIBLE shoe in many ways but the new 3.5 is excellent. Much less boat like and they feel almost as nimble as my Saloman S-Labs in technical terrain. I've run class three in them. The standard Altra outsole does suck on wet rock compared to Vibram or Saloman rubber though. Dry rock is fine. Altra does use Vibram on a few models but I haven't tried any yet.

I think anything taller than the new Lone Peaks could be tough with off camber. Just like climbing shoes its best to have multiple to match the route. The Escalante (road shoe) is misserable with off camber. So I only use them on road even though I do like mixed terrain runs.

I can't consider any class 4 as a good running surface. Can be a great work out but its much more rock hopping than running which is probably best in an approach shoe.

The new Lone Peaks look taller than I prefer, but at least they're not Hoka-tall.  Which S-Labs are you comparing to?  I'm not about to drop $180 on a pair of shoes, but the "S/Lab Speed 2" would be my choice, and I find it hard to imagine the Lone Peaks competing with them as a do-it-all shoe.

David Kutassy wrote:

I can't consider any class 4 as a good running surface. Can be a great work out but its much more rock hopping than running which is probably best in an approach shoe.

Yeah, I can't run on class 4 either ;-).  But I'd like to be able to climb it in the same shoes in which I ran to it.  I'm not familiar with climbing out East, but an example from Colorado would be Vestal Peak's Wham Ridge.  You run maybe 10 miles of trail, hike a few miles of steep, possibly muddy climbers' trail, then scramble some class 4/5.  Running the approach in "approach shoes" would murder my feet, but a carefully-chosen pair of trail runners perform almost as well as an average approach shoe.  I've done a fair amount of this sort of thing, and have thus become picky about trail runners.  They're about the only piece of gear where I don't just buy whatever's on sale.

Wore the Altra Timp all last summer and fall; really enjoyed it. Most of my running includes 15-18 miles of "approach" followed by inclined rocky surfaces (granite slabs/3rd-4th class terrain). I'm a mid-foot striker so the zero-drop really took a hurting off my joints. The Timp has a higher density rubber, for plantar fascitis prevention. No rock plate. VERY wide toe box (at least compared to what I've run in in the past). After a couple of months, I replaced the front third of the sole with sticky rubber.

I guess to further answer the OPs question, the reason you're blowing out the sides of your shoes is because you're wearing shoes that are too narrow. I've had the same problem in the past. I like Saucony runners, but I would always blow the sides of the toe box out after a few months and the shoes are basically useless. Because I over-pronate, I would see the outside rub out before the inside. This is the same reason I don't fit well into Salomons or Brooks.

Buy what fits your foot! Footwear is arguably one of the more important pieces of gear, especially for runners, climbers and hikers. I can't tell you how many people come into our shop complaining that their shoes don't fit right, because some sales guy at REI pushed the most expensive boot on them. The most expensive does not mean the right fit. But this also means you have to do a bit of research and ask questions when you walk into a shop. If a sales associate isn't asking you about the shape of your foot, doesn't ask you to run back and forth to see how you strike, and doesn't ask what activity the shoe is going to be for, WALK OUT. These are important fit questions that play a huge role in determining what shoe is right for you. Ask to try on different shoes and run laps around the shop. Every running store will let you do this, or will at least have a treadmill so that you can get a feel for how the shoe performs. 

"Shoes are a pretty individual thing." is perhaps the most true statement on this thread. I've bought a lot of shoes based on hype, and while it sometimes worked out, most of the time I wasted my money. Don't get too caught up in crazy lug patterns, specialized fabrics, advanced "chasis" or any of these other trigger terms that mean nothing other than trying to create perceived technological value. I've always thought that if I'm spending over $150, I'm getting ripped off. 

sean o wrote:

The new Lone Peaks look taller than I prefer, but at least they're not Hoka-tall.  Which S-Labs are you comparing to?  I'm not about to drop $180 on a pair of shoes, but the "S/Lab Speed 2" would be my choice, and I find it hard to imagine the Lone Peaks competing with them as a do-it-all shoe.

I have the S-Lab Sense 6 SG. Yeah its a $180 shoe but I fell in love with them at a Ragnar trail run where they let you demo a pair. When I bought them I was mostly using the Altra Superior 2.0 which had the typical wide Altra fit that made feel sloppy on tech terrain. The Sense 6 felt like it was molded to my foot. I felt more confident with them running on rocks yet didn't have any hot spots that bothered my feet like a tighter shoe normally would. The outsole is awesome in absolutely any conditions on any surface.

I can't consider the Sense 6 a good do it all shoe. Even with the great fit I'd rather have more toe space on easy terrain and Altra's cushion is dramatically more comfortable on long runs. Now the new Lone Peaks somehow managed to mix being roomy without the sloppy feeling on weird angle foot placements which made them much more usable on tech terrain. Only thing that detracts the lone peak as a "do it all shoe" is the rubber still sucks on wet rocks and roots. Almost icy feeling slick on wet rocks.

I do want to try some Altra King MT 1.5s. Less stack height than the Lone Peaks and a Vibram sole could be the ultimate do it all shoe if it has the same roomy but secure fit as my Lone Peaks.

In the Blue Ridge mountains we have Old Rag. Its a 9.5 mile loop with a little under 2 miles of really fun Class 3. The rest of its easy but steep trail. Lone Peaks have been the nicest shoe I've used for that run. There are much longer runs nearby but not with any significant rock scrambling so the Lone Peaks are still the go to shoe. I think I'd feel much better with my Saloman shoes in Class 4.

David Kutassy wrote:

 Altra Superior 2.0 which had the typical wide Altra fit that made feel sloppy on tech terrain.

Those shoes were my main experience with Altra.  Not only are they sloppy, but Altra cut holes in the outsole so small rocks could poke you, making the removable rock plate more or less mandatory.  Do they even test their stuff?

As an aside, I wish more shoes' laces extended into the toe box, so you could adjust the volume to fit the terrain.  The La Sportiva Exum Ridge did this 10 years ago: a running shoe last with approach shoe uppers.