Opinions on cold weather Action Suit options

Hello,

I'm considering the following options for my cold weather climbing Action Suit, and would like to hear some opinions on which of these options you would choose and why.

Option 1:
Baselayer - short sleeve merino wool or synthetic or merino wool synthetic blend
Midlayer - Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody or TNF Summit L2
Insulation Layer - Arc'teryx Proton AR (90 g/m2 highly breathable insulation)
Shell - Arc'teryx Alpha AR

Option 2:
Baselayer - short sleeve merino wool or synthetic or merino wool synthetic blend
Midlayer - Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody or TNF Summit L2
Insulation Layer - Arc'teryx Nuclei FL (80 g/m2 efficiently warm insulation)
Shell - Arc'teryx Alpha AR

Option 3:
Baselayer - short sleeve merino wool or synthetic or merino wool synthetic blend
Midlayer - Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody or TNF Summit L2
Insulating Shell - Arc'teryx Fission SL (Goretex bonded to 92 g/m2 highly water resistant insulation)

As you can see, the Base and Mid layer is the same for all 3 options, and only insulation layer changes and shell.

I am considering "quiver of one" Option 3, since it would be the lightest with best in class hydrophobic insulation and about the same price as the other two options. 

The only downside is the less durable and less breathable 2L 40D regular Goretex shell of the Fission SL vs the more durable and breathable 3L 80D/40D Goretex Pro Alpha AR shell.

ty

Too little information provided. What will you be climbing, and where? Ice? Rock? Ice where it's likely to be wet, or ice where it's likely to be dry? Ski approaches?

There is no "quiver killer" when it comes to cold-weather gear. You need a range of layers, with the ability to adapt to different conditions. A belay parka will also help astronomically when things get seriously cold (and windy).

There's a reason why I have a closet full of different jackets, parkas, puffies, shells, windbreakers, long underwear tops and bottoms, etc.

Lol you guys sound like a bunch of girls exceserizing 

ClimbingOn wrote:

Too little information provided. What will you be climbing, and where? Ice? Rock? Ice where it's likely to be wet, or ice where it's likely to be dry? Ski approaches?

There is no "quiver killer" when it comes to cold-weather gear. You need a range of layers, with the ability to adapt to different conditions. A belay parka will also help astronomically when things get seriously cold (and windy).

There's a reason why I have a closet full of different jackets, parkas, puffies, shells, windbreakers, long underwear tops and bottoms, etc.

Ice climbing Cascades in winter time.

I have a belay parka, but need some opinions on the Action Suite.

ty 

Seth Kane wrote:

Option 3 is by far the worst. It doesnt give you an option for conditions where you want a shell but no insulation. 

Yep. And the Nuclei is designed to be a belay jacket. Face fabric breathes very little. If you're looking for an action suit, option 1 would be the way to go.
What's with the Arcteryx obsession though?

Gavin W wrote:

Yep. And the Nuclei is designed to be a belay jacket. Face fabric breathes very little. If you're looking for an action suit, option 1 would be the way to go.
What's with the Arcteryx obsession though?

Good point guys on Option 2 and 3.

For Option 3, I was thinking there would be low probability for me to remove the Fission SL on cold winter ice climbs. I tend to run a bit cold.

For Option 2, I was thinking the combination of the more warmth efficient 80g/m2 insulation and less breathable face fabric of the Nuclei FL would compensate against the potentially higher warmth of the 90 g/m2 insulation of the heavier Proton AR Hoody. 

No obsession with Arc'teryx, other than great past season sales on funky colors no one seems to want and they fit well and last forever, so good investment.

Another option I was considering:

Option 4:
Baselayer - short sleeve merino wool or synthetic or merino wool synthetic blend
Midlayer Insulation - Rab Strata Guide (120 g/m2 highly breathable insulation) - if forecast is really cold, add beneath either Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody or TNF Summit L2
Shell - Arc'teryx Alpha AR

The Rab Strata Guide uses Polartec Alpha insulation.

Option 1. Absolutely not option 3!

I would strongly suggest you consider including some pants.  Otherwise you will prolly get cold.

I try to err on the side of more breathable midlayers. That way you can add a significant amount of warmth/wind protection by putting your shell on. If your midlayer isn't breathable enough, your only option if you need more breathability is to take it off, which usually leads to being too cold.

And for option 4, that's tough to compare without having them side-by-side; Polartec alpha has significantly less loft in the same weight as other synthetic insulations. But I personally can't imagine a situation where a 120g insulation layer would be part of my action suit (that's belay parka territory).

Not sure if you run cold, but man you list a lot of insulation for active climbing.  A fleece mid layer, like the Fortez, coupled with a synthetic insulation layer, whether it be a "breathable" synthetic or something with CoreLoft, is a lot.  Top that off with a Gore-tex shell like the Alpha AR, I'd melt into a puddle with all that gear on!

There's a specific point to active insulation - It's meant to be worn 95 percent of the time without a shell so it can breath as intended.  When wind or precip exceed your comfort range, then add in a windproof shell: Squamish, Alpha, etc.  Honestly, a long sleeve synthetic or merino with a Nano-Air Hoody or Proton LT Hoody will take you pretty far.  If you're still cold, throw on your shell or a synthetic vest.

Something like an Alpha FL is pretty hard to beat. It packs super small, weighs almost nada, has the best hood in the business and is virtually bulletproof.  Unless you really like fleece, there's really no need to layer with fleece anymore.  Synthetic active insulation dries 10x faster, weighs significantly less, packs down much easier/better and offers more warmth for the weight.  I've found the best mid layer to be Patagonia's Nano-Air Light Hoody.  Patagonia hit a grand slam with this piece.

The Nano Air light is sweet.  The regular one is far too warm, and the shell of the light is a slightly tighter weave, I believe, as it seems to be more wind resistant.

Sadly it lacks the long waist and fleece cuffs of the R1, or I think it would definitely replace it.  

Also I agree with what AlpineIce said: that's too much clothing for much action  

Why is it an Action Suit and not just clothing?

simplyput wrote:

Why is it an Action Suit and not just clothing?

Chris' Cold Weather Getup:
REI Workout T-shirt - I only go with the nice stuff if I am wearing it multiple days in a row.
Arcteryx Gamma MX - This softshell with a tiny bit of insulation makes for a bomber action layer.  I'll use an LT with a hooded baselayer for summer alpine activities.
Arcteryx Atom LT - This is my favorite balance of insulation, agility, and robustness.  
Arcteryx Alpha LT or SVX - The LT mostly stays in my pack; it's lighter and smaller than the AR.  I take the SVX if I know things are bad.

• Temps/amount of insulation
  Echoing others, that's WAY to damn warm for the PNW. I wouldn't go for the proton AR, that's too much insulation ice climbing in WA. The proton LT is perfect with a thin base layer in mild temps. Last season in Canmore my partner and I had variations of your first option and were fine while climbing. About -15f rising to -5f throughout the day, in the shade. Partner had your exact option #1, but a proton LT instead of AR. I wore a fishnet cycling tank, 120gr rab merino T, BD coefficient hoody, nanao air light hybrid, and a windshirt. Keep in mind the route was a picked out LADDER, we were not working even remotely hard on any pitch. 
• Fleece/extra insulation 
  When/if it gets in single digits combine with a grid fleece. Personally I'd opt for a lighter grid fleece over the fortrez, it's a bit too warm for me. 
• Base layer
  If you're mentioning "action suit" I'm assuming you've read Mark Twight's Extreme Alpinism (if not you should, just ignore the bits about leashed tools). He noted that most synthetic base layers actually transport moisture too fast and will "flash cool" when you stop moving. On the other end of the spectrum merino tends to dry far too slowly, while it insulates when wet that much wet fabric in contact with your skin still cools significantly. I used to try wearing a medium weight merino when I first started ski touring a decade ago, the back stayed wet all damn day.
  The rab meco 120 weight 70/30 merino/poly blend was a pretty good compromise, best of both worlds. It still suffered from wet fabric in direct contact with my back though. Then I took a trip to Norway touring and heard locals rave about Brynje fishnet base layers. Less fabric making direct contact with skin, movement of sweat vapor directly off skin w/o saturating the base layer fabric, and a "microclimate" near the skin were touted to be better over a wide range of extertion/temps. It seems great, but was damn expensive.
  I decided to try out the idea with a mesh tank made for cycling first, found it on sale for $35, https://shop.craftsports.us/194378-cool-mesh-superlight-sl-m.html.
  IT WORKS. Better than any base layer out there, everything the Norwegians said was true. The most comfortable over the broadest range of exertion/temps I've ever been. Just for testing I've gone and worked up a full dripping sweat on a pitch. Stayed warm while layers dried out, next to skin *felt* dry in a few minutes.
  
  Combine it with a "semi permeable vapor barrier" layer as Twight recommended for the best effect. A highly breathable windshirt works great. Patagonia airshed looks like the ticket.

You probably need MORE Arc'teryx. Your performance is directly related to the price of your clothes. I support the decision to try and spend all your money on a brand that makes adequate apparel but has a truly outstanding marketing department. 

A medium weight long sleeve or light grid fleece and a very light softshell is adequate. Not sure if dead bird makes the wool shirt but they definitely make the softshell. A big ass jacket for belaying.

For wintertime in the Cascades, I really like the lightest weight grid fleece stuff like Patagonia Capilene 4 (now called capilene thermal weight),  MEC T2, NW Alpine Black Spider Hoody, etc for next to skin.   Breathes / dumps heat real well, seems to be good for me in a wide range of conditions, especially when it's on the "warmer" side for winter.   Not that you included this, but I think R1 (and Fortrez) are way too warm for this region.  In general I don't think the "midlayer" is super useful here. If you're doing a lot of stop and go kinda stuff where you're not working very hard, then that may be a different story.  I don't seem to encounter that sorta thing here though (maybe I'm not climbing hard enough?).

Assuming by "action suit" you mean what you're wearing when you're climbing hard, hiking uphill, etc, I basically do the heavyweight baselayer described plus an OR Ferrosi for everything north of single digits.  On really long stuff where I'm getting tired / worn out  / getting colder, then I throw on a 60g Alpha insulation vest on top.  These things plus a "belay jacket" of some sort (I feel 100g primaloft is adequate for most Cascades stuff) and I'm covered.  

I'm such a fair-weather climber for Cascades winter stuff (day trips, maybe one nighters) that I don't think too hard about the hardshell.  Do you already own one?  Then just use that.  If you're in the market, I'd shop for price and weight and don't geek out too hard about what Outdoorgearlab says.

I'd steer your geekery inclinations towards handwear; I find this to be the real crux.  

I have never heard this term "Action Suit", I'm assuming that just means the clothing you're wearing to climb?  I don't think there is anyway to just put together a list of layers for an area. I climb ice several times a week in Provo Canyon and the temperatures can vary from below 0 with a wind chill to 35 or 40 degrees. That is a massive difference. I just put together my "action suite" for whatever that day is going to throw at me. Typically a wool baselayer, light mid-layer and a shell. But I may throw in a warmer mid-layer into the mix if the temps are really cold. If I'm doing single pitch then I also have a big belay parka to keep warm while belaying. If multi-pitch I'll have to decide if its cold enough that I should take a lighter belay jacket to put on between pitches. Just take all of your layers and put together the level of warmth that you need for the day. 

JonasMR wrote:

I would strongly suggest you consider including some pants.  Otherwise you will prolly get cold.

That's why I'm over layering on the top to keep warm blood circulating to the bottom ;-)

I have my Rab Neo Guide pants + merino 200g/m2 baselayer for that part of my Action Suit

Thanks all for the great suggestions and opinions. In short, have multiple Action Suits depending on whatever cold weather forecast is for the day or days you plan to go, and "generally" layer lightly for "Action", keeping in mind that each of us run hot, warm or cold.

It looks like the Canadians run very cold, and love climbing in Option 3+, ehhhh!!!

Check out this Arc'teryx Alpha IS promo video and Option 3+ layering used 35 seconds in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=171&v=zQvBkSNByQo

Option 3+:
Baselayer - looks like a black quarter zip shirt
Midlayer 1 - looks like an Arc'teryx long sleeve quarter zip shirt. Maybe a Rho LT
Midlayer 2 - easily recognizable Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody
Insulating Shell - Arc'teryx Alpha IS (same Goretex bonded to 92 g/m2 highly water resistant insulation used in Fission SL + 65g/m2 of same highly breathable insulation used in Proton LT = 157 g/m2 of super Canadian warmth eh!)

GearGuy 316 wrote:

Thanks all for the great suggestions and opinions. In short, have multiple Action Suits depending on whatever cold weather forecast is for the day or days you plan to go, and "generally" layer lightly for "Action", keeping in mind that each of us run hot, warm or cold.

It looks like the Canadians have a great marketing department, ehhhh der bud!!!

Check out this Arc'teryx Alpha IS promo video and Option 3+ layering used 35 seconds in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=171&v=zQvBkSNByQo

Option 3+:
Baselayer - looks like a black quarter zip shirt
Midlayer 1 - looks like an Arc'teryx long sleeve quarter zip shirt. Maybe a Rho LT
Midlayer 2 - easily recognizable Arc'teryx Fortrez Hoody
Insulating Shell - Arc'teryx Alpha IS (same Goretex bonded to 92 g/m2 highly water resistant insulation used in Fission SL + 65g/m2 of same highly breathable insulation used in Proton LT = 157 g/m2 of super Canadian warmth eh!)