Thoughts on balancing "sewing it up" with rope drag.

Related to this thread, I've been running into an issue lately. I tend to be fairly conservative with how often I place. There are very few truly G-rated climbs where I climb (The Gunks) due to all the ledges--even though there's often ample protection, most of it still allows ledge falls. I try to place whenever I think a piece would prevent a ledge fall, which ends up being pretty frequently. But the cumulative result of putting in a piece every time it would prevent a ledge fall is that by the end of a climb I'm usually struggling with a lot of rope drag, which is a safety issue in itself.

Half ropes help, but Gunks routes sometimes take sharp enough turns that even with half ropes I have a lot of drag. And I don't own half ropes (yet).

Extensions help, but also lengthen fall distance enough that an 60cm extended piece in the Gunks wouldn't prevent a ledge fall more than half the time. In short, a lot of times if am going to extend a piece, there's no point placing it because it wouldn't prevent a ledge fall. So if I'm extending a lot I'm also running it out a lot.

I have two solutions that actually reduce risk, but both are pretty inconvenient, and not always available:

1. Take short pitch options rather than linking pitches. Sometimes this means this means taking a hanging belay, which reduces my enjoyment of a route by a star or two.
2. Backcleaning, or back-extending. This is great when I can put a piece in around my head and still reach a previous piece at knee height to backclean it. But if I have to downclimb, I usually won't do this.

I'm aware this is situational and related to personal risk tolerance, so this is probably going to a be a pretty esoteric conversation. I'm not looking for any hard-and-fast rules, just looking to hear how more experienced climbers think about this.

One solution might be carrying a couple of those revolver carabiners (DMM, I think). They do a great job in mitigating the friction that causes rope drag, and eliminate the need for extension in many situations. 

Xan Calonne wrote:

One solution might be carrying a couple of those revolver carabiners (DMM, I think). They do a great job in mitigating the friction that causes rope drag, and eliminate the need for extension in many situations. 

Yeah, I have one and I'll bring that up if there's a sharp turn in a route. Forgot to mention that. If I were made of money I'd consider throwing those on the rope end of a bunch of my alpine draws, but they're kind of expensive. They're heavy but I think probably the rope drag is worse than the extra weight.

I think the reality is that you have to climb with the risk of ledge-falls. In my opinion, if the moves are within your ability and you trust your belayer, temporarily climbing into a ledge fall zone is a reasonable risk to take. Of course if I'm unsure, I'll place more gear, but on easier climbs with lots of ledges I consider it part of the inherent risk that is very difficult to mitigate (and rope drag can be more risky).

Maybe hop on climbs with less ledges?

The truth of the matter is many (most?) 'easy' routes are dangerous to fall on because there's too many ledges. The solution is to climb steeper (harder) routes that have less ledges.

Or just don't fall.

BigRed11 wrote:

In my opinion, if the moves are within your ability and you trust your belayer, temporarily climbing into a ledge fall zone is a reasonable risk to take. Of course if I'm unsure, I'll place more gear, but on easier climbs with lots of ledges I consider it part of the inherent risk that is very difficult to mitigate (and rope drag can be more risky).

Agreed. I've no problem risking a ledge fall through easy climbing. This is more of a problem where I'm climbing closer to my limit and falling is a real possibility.

Maybe hop on climbs with less ledges?

There aren't many of these in the Gunks. As a guide said to me once, "This is a good place for trad, but a bad place to fall".

nathanael wrote:

The truth of the matter is many (most?) 'easy' routes are dangerous to fall on because there's too many ledges. The solution is to climb steeper (harder) routes that have less ledges.

Yeah, working on that. :)

Or just don't fall.

If I could guarantee that, I'd just free solo.

Seems to me like to have all of the techniques and/or gear that are needed to prevent rope drag. You say you want less rope drag but you don't want to downclimb and back clean or extend lower placements. Sound like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Something has to give or you're gonna have to suck it up and deal with the rope drag. 

You have to balance fall protection, rope drag, and time spent mitigating rope drag. If I'm just out cragging casually, I'll usually just go back and extend or clean lower placements. If I'm on a route that's easy but very long, I might prioritize rope drag and time over fall protection. If I'm climbing at my limit on a long route, I might just suck it up and deal with rope drag.

If you're having this issue, ultimately something will have to give because you can't have it all. It sounds like time is probably where you want to sacrifice considering the gunks are 3-4 pitches max. 

In general, when doing a route for the first time, I tend to not pass up any gear opportunity within a body length or so of my last placement. You never know when you're going to need it. On easier climbs at the Gunks, this usually means that, at some point or another, I will place a piece (and potentially extend it) while standing on a ledge. This certainly isn't going to prevent a ledge fall, but it might prevent me from bouncing off that ledge and down the rest of the pitch if I fall. On such climbs, my decision to extend or not has more to do with rope path/drag issues than mitigating a ledge fall. Also, I think carefully about extending a piece. Sometimes it is a no-brainer, but I really try to visualize my rope path ahead of time instead of mindlessly extending every piece.

There are very few places where falls will be clean at the Gunks on routes 5.8 and under. So I think you mainly have to accept that most moderates and easier routes at the Gunks are no-fall zones. If you're placing solid protection often, you probably won't die if you fall, but you're probably going to get injured.

eli poss wrote:

Seems to me like to have all of the techniques and/or gear that are needed to prevent rope drag. You say you want less rope drag but you don't want to downclimb and back clean or extend lower placements. Sound like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Something has to give or you're gonna have to suck it up and deal with the rope drag. 

You have to balance fall protection, rope drag, and time spent mitigating rope drag. If I'm just out cragging casually, I'll usually just go back and extend or clean lower placements. If I'm on a route that's easy but very long, I might prioritize rope drag and time over fall protection. If I'm climbing at my limit on a long route, I might just suck it up and deal with rope drag.

If you're having this issue, ultimately something will have to give because you can't have it all. It sounds like time is probably where you want to sacrifice considering the gunks are 3-4 pitches max. 

After some thought, I think this is what I needed to hear from this thread. I guess I've just got to suck it up and downclimb to backclean more often.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

After some thought, I think this is what I needed to hear from this thread. I guess I've just got to suck it up and downclimb to backclean more often.

Glad to help. It seems like a real PITA at first but it really isn't that bad. I actually didn't starting doing this very frequently until I had to start setting a good example (helping teach a climbing class) recently for school, and I feel like a real idiot for not adopting this habit much earlier. Eventually it just becomes second nature if you do a lot of wandering climbs. 

acrophobe wrote:

Shorter pitches not only reduce drag, but also mean you are less likely to hit a ledge due to rope stretch.

Never thought of this.

It sounds as if I am much more willing to back clean than you.  If I can reverse the moves, I will definitely go back down and remove a piece that that will cause problems.

Yeah, I think that's what I'm getting out of this thread--more experienced folks seem more willing to downclimb to backclean than I am.

I always carry a DMM Revolver as part of a quickdraw.  I try to use it at whichever spot I think will cause the most drag.  It can also be extremely helpful at the GT ledge if you decide to belay significantly to the side of the exit move.  

I carry a micro traxion when following routes with significant overhangs for climbing the rope. It occurs to me that this would be even better for redirects on the GT ledge as the action of the pulley is extremely smooth.

eli poss wrote:

Glad to help. It seems like a real PITA at first but it really isn't that bad. I actually didn't starting doing this very frequently until I had to start setting a good example (helping teach a climbing class) recently for school, and I feel like a real idiot for not adopting this habit much earlier. Eventually it just becomes second nature if you do a lot of wandering climbs. 

Yeah, thinking back to some recent climbs where I had some really bad rope drag there were some really easy solutions if I had been willing to downclimb (or reverse a traverse). It also occurs to me that one can also clip both ropes to protect downclimbs, which is an advantage of half ropes. Like on Horseman (straight up climb up dihedral, followed by traverse left across a face and around arete, followed by straight up climbing):

1. Climb up to the top of the dihedral, clipping only the right rope.
2. Climb a body length along the traverse and clip the right rope.
3. Traverse out to arete and clip the left rope there.
4. Reverse traverse back to the top of dihedral and remove the piece from #1 (protected by pieces from #2 and #3).
5. Traverse out to left face and clip the left rope there to the optional belay there.
6. Climb up a body length, put in two pieces, and clip both ropes there.
7. Downclimb to optional belay and clean from optional belay (leaves a lot of slack on left rope, but you're protected by the right rope from #6).
8. Climb back up to the two pieces from #6 and unclip the right rope, leaving the left rope clipped two pieces to protect the very long fall.
9. Climb up the face, clipping only the left rope until the route is roughly above the original dihedral.

This plan would have left both ropes fairly straight as opposed to both being lightning-bolt-shaped as they were when I climbed this, and one of the ropes is fairly taut at all times, even when I've down- or back-climbed and cleaned a piece.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Related to this thread, I've been running into an issue lately. I tend to be fairly conservative with how often I place. There are very few truly G-rated climbs where I climb (The Gunks) due to all the ledges--even though there's often ample protection, most of it still allows ledge falls. I try to place whenever I think a piece would prevent a ledge fall, which ends up being pretty frequently. But the cumulative result of putting in a piece every time it would prevent a ledge fall is that by the end of a climb I'm usually struggling with a lot of rope drag, which is a safety issue in itself.

Half ropes help, but Gunks routes sometimes take sharp enough turns that even with half ropes I have a lot of drag. And I don't own half ropes (yet).

Extensions help, but also lengthen fall distance enough that an 60cm extended piece in the Gunks wouldn't prevent a ledge fall more than half the time. In short, a lot of times if am going to extend a piece, there's no point placing it because it wouldn't prevent a ledge fall. So if I'm extending a lot I'm also running it out a lot.

I have two solutions that actually reduce risk, but both are pretty inconvenient, and not always available:

1. Take short pitch options rather than linking pitches. Sometimes this means this means taking a hanging belay, which reduces my enjoyment of a route by a star or two.
2. Backcleaning, or back-extending. This is great when I can put a piece in around my head and still reach a previous piece at knee height to backclean it. But if I have to downclimb, I usually won't do this.

I'm aware this is situational and related to personal risk tolerance, so this is probably going to a be a pretty esoteric conversation. I'm not looking for any hard-and-fast rules, just looking to hear how more experienced climbers think about this.

This is a common problem with an easy fix, only place when you need it and plan ahead.

"Need" is defined as when you might fall. Too often I see people place gear in easy terrain that won't do shit for them in a few moves. Take it a little bit further and learn to recognize where a rest spot might be and place there.

Sometimes I will place a piece, climb higher place another, then down climb a bit to the piece before clean that and put it back on the rack if I feel like I will need that piece higher up.

Tradiban wrote:

Sometimes I will place a piece, climb higher place another, then down climb a bit to the piece before clean that and put it back on the rack if I feel like I will need that piece higher up.

Lately, I've been doing this a lot. Or place piece 1, place piece 2 a little higher, then go back for piece 1 and place it even higher and take out piece 2. Often I do this if I want pro for a single move but then I want that piece to be higher up on the climb. Usually this happens when I want to place a piece now and also have it for later. 

eli poss wrote:

Lately, I've been doing this a lot. Or place piece 1, place piece 2 a little higher, then go back for piece 1 and place it even higher and take out piece 2. Often I do this if I want pro for a single move but then I want that piece to be higher up on the climb. Usually this happens when I want to place a piece now and also have it for later. 

just bring a bigger rack, no one wants to sit at the belay while their partner climbs up and down over and over to conserve gear..

nathanael wrote:

just bring a bigger rack, no one wants to sit at the belay while their partner climbs up and down over and over to conserve gear..

Why do you come to my trad climbing area and carry a triple rack of cams up the approach and then tell me to bring more gear.

And I'm not expending large amounts of time doing this. The entire process takes about 1 or 2 min and I've never done this more than once per pitch. If my belayer can't manage to belay me for a few more minutes per pitch then they can fuck off and climb with somebody else. 

eli poss wrote:

Why do you come to my trad climbing area and carry a triple rack of cams up the approach and then tell me to bring more gear.

And I'm not expending large amounts of time doing this. The entire process takes about 1 or 2 min and I've never done this more than once per pitch. If my belayer can't manage to belay me for a few more minutes per pitch then they can fuck off and climb with somebody else. 

Another CA trolling a CO. Don't take it personally braj.

I like to carry some tri-cams to fill the gaps, especially for the anchor.

hahaha just bs'ing don't worry. of course there's always a time and place for conserving gear and a time for big racks. I'm mostly poking fun at myself for times I've left extra gear in the pack and then wondered what I was thinking when I'm wasting time bumping cams and backcleaning to get to the top. On the other hand one of my partners never leaves the ground without a triple rack and I hate carrying all that weight and bulk on lead. always a tradeoff.

Climbing is dangerous. If it wasn't, it would be boring. You need to forget the idea that you can remove 100% of the risk from it. You can only do your best to mitigate it. 

I think most people who have just started leading also underestimate the fall potential. I used to think that if I had a piece at my waist I wouldn't go anywhere. Turns out it depends on where you are on the pitch. More rope equals longer fall. It's hard to understand until you start taking (hopefully safe) falls. 

A friend of mine explained it the best to me: your first goal of placing protection is to protect you. Your second goal is managing rope drag. 

Edit to add: on the routes you are climbing based on your tick list, YOU SHOULD NOT EVER FALL. There is almost NOWHERE that it would be safe to do so. This is just a fact. You should be able to adequately protect without massive rope drag although you will constantly be exposed to ledge fall no matter what you do. What will keep you safe is your climbing abilities. 

The gear on easy climbs is just to keep you from dying. 

"This is a common problem with an easy fix, only place when you need it and plan ahead."

I'd pay attention to route descriptions & line drawings to better know when it'll be an issue and what routes to avoid if your uncomfortable with extending to avoid drag. I prefer to back clean if the gear above is available/solid as you get to reduce risk and get your gear back, but that's not always possible (who's down climbing a roof to get a cam back??). That said, doubles are great for wandering and an amazing time saver to get off the GT in 1 rap. Also, with how crowded the gunks are, getting on trade routes above your limit is also annoying for everyone walking down the road looking for classics, only to find a new climber freaking out when they are above their grade and run out and/or building a gear anchor 1/2 way up a pitch because they ran out of gear. 

That being said, everyone starts somewhere and I remember the first time I climbed Drunkards Delight in the Gunks (linking P1&2). I failed at extended a piece right below the roof because I had sewed it up down low and ran out of long alpine draws. I literally had to set-up a haul system to take in rope due to heinous drag and being pumped... This put my second at risk as I couldn't see them and feel slack. Nothing bad happened as I could hear their frequent calls to take up the slack, but looking back, I learned the importance of extending gear for roofs for not only the leader, but also the second. My advice would be climb the remaining G routes, then start working on enlarging your Cojones!