Single or Double Boots?

Thanks in advance!

Depends on what your climbing consists of - vertical waterfall ice, cragging, multi-pitch at elevation, glacier?  Any backcountry or long approach routes?  How committed to performance are you? Which is more important - warmth or precision?  Do you and your partner(s) climb fast, or is there lag time fiddling with gear, rope and/or building anchors?  Do you guys climb reasonably fast, or will you be static for long periods of time belaying?  

All these factors make a difference to me.  I own both doubles and singles & if we can move fast in cold weather, then a single boot like the Phantom Tech, G5 or Batura will take you pretty far.  If you find yourself standing around or exposed/elevation, and you know you have foot sensitivity to the cold, then doubles wouldn't be a bad investment.

I've climbed alpine ice and waterfall ice in both & there is a big difference in precision.  If I'm climbing in weather below 10-15ºF & I know we may be moving slower than normal, or at a crag, then I sometimes wear doubles just because I, too, notice the cold in my toes that much more in lower temperatures.

If precision is vital, then you can buy a solid single boot and try the vapor barrier method.  Keeping your socks dry from sweat will keep your feet pretty warm with the right sock, boot fit and lace tension.  Solid blood circulation in your feet is what keeps your toes warm. 

AlpineIce wrote:

If precision is vital, then you can buy a solid single boot and try the vapor barrier method.  Keeping your socks dry from sweat will keep your feet pretty warm with the right sock, boot fit and lace tension.  Solid blood circulation in your feet is what keeps your toes warm. 

A quick note for VB socks and the G5 from sportiva, the inner and outer are already vapor barriers so IDK how needed another vapor barrier is or how thick a sock you should be wearing in it, has anybody tried a 3mm neoprene sock in G5's?

Go to AMH in Anchorage and listen to what they have to tell you.

NRS makes 0.5mm neoprene socks - they need to be seam sealed to be VBLs. Gonna try this myself soon. The other plus ist hey have a soft fleece interior so you can probably skip the liner sock

Dante Carriero wrote:

NRS makes 0.5mm neoprene socks - they need to be seam sealed to be VBLs. Gonna try this myself soon. The other plus ist hey have a soft fleece interior so you can probably skip the liner sock

Surely it makes more sense to just deal with the neoprene inner and turn them inside out, like why would you put the fleece next to skin? Kinda defeats the purpose of VB liners.

The purpose of VB's is to keep your main insulation from getting wet from sweat. Regardless of how you put the neoprene VB sock you should be protecting either a thick wool sock or the insulation in the boot itself. The fleece next to your skin is so thin it will add a neglible amount to the insulation (wet or dry) so you may as well wear it inwards as they intended for comfort. Neoprene directly on skin would surely be more comfortable than the classic VB (plastic bags), but still not great. Of course if you seam sealed it you could wear it however youd like and the VB effect would be the same.

Shameless plug I have been using these VBL socks with fleece for years: http://www.gator-sports.com/shop/product-category/socks/

When wearing a VBL you want something between your skin and the VBL that wicks away the moisture. Woven in fleece or a polypro liner sock both work. 

As for the OP as you are prone to cold feet you might hedge towards a double boot. BITD double boots were clunky compared today's boots. But people still climbed some hard water fall ice. As you are learning the difference between a single and a double will be little. Regardless of which you choose make sure there is room to replace the footbed with a good one like those from SuperFeet. Also make sure you try the boots on with your preferred sock combination.

Vaughn Fetzer wrote:

Go to AMH in Anchorage and listen to what they have to tell you.

I was there Sunday and I ended up talking with a guy who had never ice climbed and was much more interested in Nordic Skiing. I was able to get some information from him, but nothing that was new to me. 

Allen Sanderson wrote:

As you are learning the difference between a single and a double will be little.

Exactly what I was thinking. Not only that but with the learning process I imagine everything will go slower and be colder.

Plus if I go to single boots somewhere down the road, I imagine I'll instantly be climbing harder.

Leading WI 5+ ice with double (plastic) boots is not a problem.  Warm feet rule!

that guy named seb wrote:

A quick note for VB socks and the G5 from sportiva, the inner and outer are already vapor barriers so IDK how needed another vapor barrier is or how thick a sock you should be wearing in it, has anybody tried a 3mm neoprene sock in G5's?

I don't own G5's, I just threw that option out there so he had an idea if what to research.  I had no idea they come VBL built in.  I'm going on season two with Phantom Techs & they fit my feet like a dream. G2SMs for my doubles.

I love and climb in South Central AK.  For 90% of the ice cragging I do, warm singles are the way to go (Phantom Guides for me).  If it's too cold for those, that means the temps must be negative double-digits.  Climbing ice sucks in those temps.  Save cold interior routes for the shoulder season when the temps are milder and South-central is melting out.

that guy named seb wrote:

A quick note for VB socks and the G5 from sportiva, the inner and outer are already vapor barriers so IDK how needed another vapor barrier is or how thick a sock you should be wearing in it, has anybody tried a 3mm neoprene sock in G5's?

WPB membranes are not a vapor barrier.... yet another time Seb needs to do some more research before commenting.

Main reason to get a double is for multi day missions. The vapor barrier sock is one way to try to cheat this, but you still have outside moisture that can wet (then freeze) the outer material and some insulation since the waterproof membrane sits next to your sock. But most of the wet out of insulation comes from foot perspiration and not the outside moisture.

So with getting a proper boot fitting, keeping your core warm, and potentially sock management with VB is probably the best way to go with a single.

Just like Allen said still use a sock even with those fleece lined VB as you want to have a dry/ whicking material next to skin.

That being said the Arcteryx Double boot is more of a 1.75 boot as that inner bootie is just perforated ariaprene and a WPB membrane. So that might be a good option for you. It climbs really well and doesn't feel as huge as a true double...but that's because it's not really a true double. 

I'd just get a good single super gaitered boot (G5, Batura 2.0, Phantom Guide, Phantom Tech) don't bother with leather upper'd boots. Then down the road if you are doing multi day adventures look into getting the double then or hell, rent them for those multiday adventures. 

NorCalNomad wrote:

WPB membranes are not a vapor barrier.... yet another time Seb needs to do some more research before commenting.

NorCal could you please stfu, like seriously it take 5 fucking second to go on the lasportiva sight and you will clearly see their new range of performance boots (G5&G7) do not have waterproof breathable membranes do your some of your own fucking research, holy shit.

https://www.sportiva.com/men-s/men-s-footwear/g5.html

that guy named seb wrote:

NorCal could you please stfu, like seriously it take 5 fucking second to go on the lasportiva sight and you will clearly see their new range of performance boots (G5&G7) do not have waterproof breathable membranes do your some of your own fucking research, holy shit.

https://www.sportiva.com/men-s/men-s-footwear/g5.html

From your link...

"GAITER: Stretch Cordura® / Heat-sealed zipper / Waterproof membrane / Air Injected rubber rands
UPPER: High tenacity Nylon / Insulating felt / PE barrier
LINING: Waterproof membrane"

Reading is really...really...really...like 5.16 level hard.

NorCalNomad wrote:

From your link...

"GAITER: Stretch Cordura® / Heat-sealed zipper / Waterproof membrane / Air Injected rubber rands
UPPER: High tenacity Nylon / Insulating felt / PE barrier
LINING: Waterproof membrane"

Reading is really...really...really...like 5.16 level hard.

Waterproof not waterproof breathable, also "PE barrier" hmmmm  wonder what that is, is sounds shockingly similar to what is found in VB socks.

Goretex is an ePTFE membrane. No idea if its similar. 

Sounds like it may just stand for "PolyEthylyne". Its the same stuff the Nalgene "ultralight" bottles are made out of (the old style, HDPE, non clear and softer). If this is the case its not breathable.

Instead of name calling it might be easier if one of you just called them.

Dante Carriero wrote:

Goretex is an ePTFE membrane. No idea if its similar. 

Sounds like it may just stand for "PolyEthylyne". Its the same stuff the Nalgene "ultralight" bottles are made out of (the old style, HDPE, non clear and softer). If this is the case its not breathable.

Instead of name calling it might be easier if one of you just called them.

It does indeed just stand for Polyethylene it also mentions a "insulating polyethylene barrier" and "waterproof Cordura®" and you only have to look at the G7 to see more use of vapor impermiable materials such as the booty being made out out polyethylene and EVA foam. It's pretty easy to work out if if it's got a waterproof breathable membrane infact it's as easy and looking at the name and looking for 3 letters, G T X they have goretex in the name the one exception to the rule is the Karakorum HC.

Dante Carriero wrote:

Goretex is an ePTFE membrane. No idea if its similar. 

Sounds like it may just stand for "PolyEthylyne". Its the same stuff the Nalgene "ultralight" bottles are made out of (the old style, HDPE, non clear and softer). If this is the case its not breathable.

No, they're not the same. ePTFE = expanded polytetrafluoroethylene. HDPE = high-density polyethylene. PTFE is a chain of carbon and fluorine atoms, HDPE is carbon and hydrogen. Other than GoreTex a well-known example of PTFE is the teflon coating on non-stick frying pans.

Let's choose to look at semantics first...

-LINING: Waterproof membrane
"A membrane is a selective barrier; it allows some things to pass through but stops others."
Now why would Sportiva choose to use the word membrane if they are in fact putting a barrier as the lining? Sure maybe it is translation from Italian problem, but from the G5 I examined that definitely had a WPB membrane as the liner, and I probably even know the company that made it.

Now onto real world experience/ research

Having both examined and even cut in half waterproof mountaineering boots, super gaitered boots, and the G2 and G5 (what's the G7? :P) they do have waterproof breathable membranes. Sportiva is most likely moving away from the goretex in the G5 because companies like Cosmo or Sympatex (which most probably have never heard of if you are outside the clothing or shoe business) make products that are just as good if not better in some regards to Goretex, BUT WAY CHEAPER. Goretex like Vibram has some aggressive business tactics that have actually held back product progression. 

LaSportiva has long used PE foam as an insulator (the silver bit in the Spantik is PE foam covered with a PU/TPU skin). But if you take your single boot, like the G2, with PE foam on a multiday mission it will freeze inside of the boot regardless. That's because the WPB membrane sits next to your sock and "exhausts" into the insulation, foam, and the rest of the upper. So it doesn't matter if your PE serves as a vapor barrier all it's doing is keeping in moisture at that point. Talk to Jimmy Chin about that, he almost lost some toes on one of the earlier Meru expedition because of using Baturas.

Now even though your original post was addressing the G5 we'll talk about the G2 since you keep mentioning it...

The G2 uses EVA and PE as an insulator as the inner booty because they won't soak up moisture like other insulation would. This comes in handy when you are drying them in your sleeping bag on multiday adventures. They are not vapor barriers though as the inner bootie opens up, therefore being a channel for vapor at other spots than around your ankle. But the WPB membranes are still there on the outer boot and on the gaiter. 

Dawg I make my living off of knowing this.