Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Climbing harder by not climbing hard?
|
I got on a super crimpy 11b today and my fingers hurt. I know better... hard crimping has always done this. I'm hoping that I can get stronger without ever pulling at the limit of my finger strength. In other words, finding something that is reasonably difficult for me (say a 10c route) and doing ton of laps on it, and ARCing, and bouldering below my limit, and doing core exercises and other general fitness work, etc. What do you think? Can someone get stronger without regularly pushing her absolute limits? If yes, this seems to be a safer route (though perhaps not the fastest route). |
|
Nope. The foundation of any physical conditions is maximal strength. Without pushing to (and slightly beyond) your limits you cannot get stronger. P.S. Stop crimping indoors. Use only open hand grip. Strive not to use crimping outdoors, this is the last resort option. |
Pavel Burov wrote: Agreed. If you practice doing open hand crimps and practice on slopers, your fingers will get stronger with significantly less risk for injury. Also consider practicing endurance on easier routes, like maybe do a .10b as many times as you can to build endurance while you can't explicitly work on finger strength. |
|
From my experience, crimpy 11bs tend to be near vertical, meaning you should be able to get a fair amount of weight onto your feet, which would require less load on your fingers. Have you considered that it could be a technique issue? Were you wearing good edging shoes? Otherwise, as others said, sadly this is exactly backwards; endurance comes from strength, not strength from endurance. The most effective (and safe) way of improving this would be hangboarding and developing your open hand technique. Try to avoid full crimping (thumb on top, fingers fully bent) as much as possible. |
|
No. It doesn't work that way, I've tried it. The Trango Forge Hangboard lets you train crimps fairly safely. What's your weight/ BMI? |
|
While I agree that open hand is less injury prone than crimping, crimping offers the advantage of getting your wrist closer to the hold. As you get into the harder grades, that few inches between crimping and open hand a hold can mean the difference between reaching the next hold or not. So avoiding crimps is not really the answer. Personally, I train the crimp on a hangboard and pulley system with LOTS of assistance. Since injuries in crimping tend to be tendons and pulleys instead of muscles, I think gradual loading over a long period of time helps strengthen the tendon. |
|
You cannot climb at your limit without climbing at your limit. However, it is very unlikely that 11b is anywhere near your physical limit, so you should be able to get there and a bit past before really plateauing. But lapping 10s isn't going to teach you to try hard. You need to boulder on stuff that is at least hard enough that you can't flash it. Do this at least 1/3 of your climbing sessions. If you want to climb 12+ or harder, a more specific approach like people here are mentioning is valuable, but for the improvement you are trying to make, mostly unnecessary. |
|
Thanks all. I truly appreciate the feedback! I'm 55 yrs old, climbed 14 years, took a 16 year break, and came back to it last year. I'm injury prone and therefore trying very hard to be conservative and stay healthy. I'm 166 lbs, 6'1" (so BMI 21.9). I can still do a front lever (for 2-3 secs) and almost do a one-arm pullup, but my fingers are the weak link... just not that strong. I've been outdoor climbing for 9 mons of the last year and started gym training 3 mons ago, bouldering to V4 (very soft indoor rating) and doing 15 min ARC sessions. I'm afraid of the hangboard given how many people seem to get injured on it. |
|
If you get injured on the hangboard you are doing it wrong. Period. End of story. Not very helpful, but there is no reason to be afraid of it. It's one of the most controlled environments for gaining finger strength. |
|
I don't think you need to be afraid of the hangboard, and it's a very efficient way to gain finger strength, but I think you can do also do a significant amount of training without focusing specifically on finger strength and still improve. There are just so many factors in climbing performance it's hard to give good directions in an internet forum. I'm suggest finding a climbing coach and scheduling a session where they can give you specific feedback. |
|
Hi John, in my opinion, your (and many others') fear of the hangboard is misplaced. I find that many people talk of its potential for injury, but I actually can't recall the last time I heard some report an injury from the hangboard. Most injuries I hear are from bouldering, campusing, or route climbing. The important point with the hangboard is that it's only as safe as you make it. If you try doing dead hangs with 20 lbs hanging off your harness on a two finger pocket, then yeah, you should be worried about injury. The good news is that with an easy to set up counterweight pulley system, you can make the hangboard incredibly safe by allowing yourself to hang from different grips with less than bodyweight. The reason this type of system has become (I'd argue) the vastly preferred method for finger strength workouts in climbing training is that 1) it's highly specific to the grips and isometric hangs that you actually do when you're climbing, and 2) it's extremely predictable and controllable in terms of the loads you expose your fingers to. And if something feels tweaky, it's a lot easier mentally to let go of the hangboard than it is to drop off the 5.11 crimpfest that you're THIS close to sending, y'know? My recommendation would be to look into the Rock Climbers Training Manual book. It's a really thorough and comprehensive explanation of how to structure training, including hangboarding. It's very prescriptive, which I think is a good thing for someone just getting into training. It should equip you with a lot of the core concepts, and once you become familiar with them and have some experience under your belt with different training exercises, you can begin to experiment with variations on those exercises as you see fit (and maybe with more advice from this forum!). My only warning for the book is that it suggests campus board training even for beginner or intermediate level climbers, which I don't agree with. Unlike the hangboard, I think the campus board does carry a real injury potential. Unless you've been training for a long time or are pushing high bouldering grades, I think it's best to stay off the campus board entirely. |
|
two possible solutions here! 1) since you have strong core, back and shoulders (judging by front lever and almost one-arm pull-up), you can climb steep routes that don't generally have small holds that require full crimping in the 5.11-12 range. 2) get a beastmaker and get hanging! do everything with open hand or half crimp! Over time your open crimp strength will be equally strong as your full crimp! I'd do both! |
|
Tom Randall recently did a great episode on Training Beta where he talked about data he and his Pattice partner (not Pete) collected on different training strategies for different people. One thing he mentioned was the misconception that hangboarding was somehow more injurious than regular climbing, which was why many youth programs steered their kids away from it until they were older. This is a mistake because most injuries are caused by dynamic loading (campusing, bouldering) or improperly trained fingers. I’m fairly injury-prone myself (34, but I’m double-jointed) and actually use hangboarding as a means of preventing and rehabbing injury (while getting stronger, obviously). Every time I’ve injured myself it was bouldering... |
|
https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/esther-fingers/?portfolioCats=72 http://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/blog/2017/7/18/episode-51-finger-health-with-dr-lisa-Erickson both advocate some form of progressive hangboarding to return from injury. The controlled load is safer than any sort of climbing that is actually hard enough to make you stronger |
Dan Austin wrote: If I recall, RCTM classifies 5.12 climber as "beginner". I get hammered pretty hard on their beginner hangboard routine. |
|
Dan has good info on using a pulley system to remove weight, that's the safest way to slowly increase loads on your connective tissue. Key point being to remember that in the early years of using the hangboard for half/full crimp you are trying to build up the connective tissue which is weaker than your muscles and does not get stronger anywhere near as quickly (6 times longer for connective tissue adaption than muscle has been thrown around). So don't get greedy and add a bunch of weight simply to claim you're hanging more, aim for steady slow progress. I would disagree with Dan on advising someone to follow the RCTM program outright though. It's an incredibly restrictive plan, the periodization leads you to a very brief peak for the time put in, and their hang boarding phase is such high volume that you're VERY likely to hurt a finger if you do even moderate climbing during that phase. I've seen it happen to a dozen people now, they're in the middle of the hang phase, we get a rare nice day and they just want to get outside, bam in comes a mild pulley strain with one day climbing just above their onsight limit. The other problem is that you spend such a long time in between hangboard phases (with no hanging) that many of my partners who followed it come back and are right where they were at the start of the first cycle. Personally I've had great results following Steve Bechtel's 3-6-9 ladder protocol throughout the year, while never having to take a break from climbing or hold myself back outside. Cycle for cycle it may not get me the same gains that the high volume RCTM repeaters could, but over the long haul I'll get multiple cycles in of ladders when I wouldn't be hang boarding at all following the full RCTM plan. I think it's a better idea to just keep climbing as you were, while adding in a hangboard plan you can stick with and continue to do this until you hit a hard plateau, one that sticks around for a season. https://www.trainingbeta.com/hangboard-ladders-with-steve-bechtel/ *edit* also to add on open hand vs. crimping. I do try to grab most gym holds with an open hand (PIP joint lower than DIP joint), but when you need to do a low lockoff the only way to keep the grip is typically to go into a half/full crimp. It's just in the mechanics of the hand/wrist. Hitting your dead points with an open grip is helpful though, that's when you're really dynamically loading the fingers, you can transition into the crimp grip as you move up in the lock off, this is slower and your feet are bearing a brunt of the weight. Also the thumb engagement doesn't matter in the context of full vs. half crimp. It's about how high your PIP joint is, if it's even with the DIP joint that's a half crimp. If your PIP joint is higher than your finger tip and your DIP joint is hyperextended this is a full crimp, the more acute angle through PIP joint puts a far greater force on both the A2 pulley, regardless of whether you stack the thumb or not. Actually stacking the thumb on top can reduce loads carried on the index finger. |
|
Work your footwork and your open hand crimp strength. If you're on a 5.11, you likely don't need to bear down exceptionally hard to do the moves. Figure out how to take as much weight off your hands as possible with good footwork, and practice using an open hand grip with as little force as possible to stay on the wall. Also focus on being as precise and static as possible. I find that finger injury and pain is generally related to lack of control in my climbing. |
Nick Drake wrote: Totally fair, and I would tend to agree with you. What I was getting at is that for a true training newb, RCTM is great in that it offers a comprehensive off the shelf plan that literally tells you what to do day by day. From personal experience, this was incredibly helpful for getting started training. Once I got the hang of their program, I felt confident enough to experiment more and change the structure, but I wouldn't have really known where to start if I was just trying to pull together a training plan based on Bechtel's blog, the Power Company blog, Eva Lopez, etc. In the years since I started training, there have been a lot more comprehensive training programs published, so the OP doesn't necessarily need to start with the RCTM. I still think it's the most exhaustive single training resource out there, though. Even if you don't follow their program, I think it's a valuable read just to immerse yourself in the terminology, frameworks and concepts that are mostly still relevant in other programs. |
|
Some really good advice there. One thing I’ve noticed recently about my own performance is that I tend to do too many large foot movements/high steps. I’m tall and have long legs, so I’ll skip intermediate footholds in favor of higher (better) footholds. The Anderson Bros make an interesting point about how this actually puts more load on your hands and thus pumps you out faster. You really notice it in the higher grades...I have a 12a I’ve been working on and I’ve noticed that it spits me off every time I try to make a big move and/or skip holds. Try to have a 3:1 ratio of foot:hand moves whenever reasonable. What else do you guys do to lessen the load on fingers? I’ve heard people talk about consciously applying active foot pressure and/or “grabbing” holds with your toes on overhangs, but I don’t know if my proprioception is quite there to notice a difference beyond keeping my feet on the wall/from cutting. |
|
deadlifting and core work like ab rollouts and levers help put more weight on the feet in my experience |
aikibujin wrote: There are several limiting factor in the context of the task of reaching that hold. To name a few: 1. Do you really stand on your toes? 2. Do you push your core really hard? 3. Do you have enough flexibility to do all body work needed? 4. Do you really engage all that flexibility? 5. Do you really commit when committing to that dead point move? There are way more limiting factor to list. None of them would refer to the term "crimp". If one needs to crimp to reach higher there are chances that particular one lacks something important about foot- and body- work and positioning. |
