Different training strategy for pull ups.

I'll preface this post by saying that usually when someone asks specifically about pull up training that their time should be spent elsewhere, usually in climbing. I agree with this approach for them. In fact, when I was climbing in the 13's, I could only do about 7-8 pull ups total (humble spray). There is just so much more to climbing than pull ups. In the 20 some odd years I've been doing this, I know this.

However, I am a unique case. I have a lovely health condition that causes my body to attack my muscles. In my case it is my already diminutive lats and shoulders than took most of the damage. Throughout the life cycle of this joy, I've lost about 15lbs of upper body muscle and gotten to the point of being unable to do a single pullup. Not one. I'm a 136lb dude who climbs and I can't do a pull up. Let that sink in.

The place I've noticed a deficit is when I have to power into something. Whether overhung, sideleaning, roof move, or long move. My power is super low. This means I can't let go with one hand to move up. I can't reach the next hold. I can't bump. If my feet cut, they're off and won't go back on, I'm very soon to follow. If I can't get good feet, I can't do it. It's rather frustrating to say the least. Of course there has been a massive drop in the numbers I can send.

I do have good news though. With a new rheumatologist, new (and lots) of drugs, and some large out of pocket expenses, I've stopped attacking myself. So much so that with nothing other than treatment, I've gone from zero to one pull up. I'm even thinking about two!. Remember guys, muscle fibers in adults don't reproduce. They can only grow in size. I've lost a LOT of fibers, my limit will permanently be lower than it used to.

As long as my labs show that I'm under control, I intend to get back as much as I can. I see two ways forward, I'm open to others as well. 

1. Do a pull up, jump down, rest repeat until I simply can't. Gradually increase to 2, then 3, etc in a row. (I'm at 6-7 total pullups, one at a time, with a minute or two rest in between. It' literally all I can handle). Eventually hoping to get to 8 or so, maybe even sets of 8 if my body allows it. 

2, Assist. I'm standing on 3 bungee cords and doing 3 sets of 10. I believe next week I'll be moving to 2 cords. You get the idea.

I see 1 being more effective in a sense because a real pullup engages the core so much more than an assist. I see 2 being more effective because it allows me to perform a decent amount of repetitions before being too tired. 

What are your ideas. 

Sorry for the long post. I felt the need to really justify doing any pullup training at all.

Based on your need to grow muscle size (hypertrophy) I would recommend the second approach

FYI there is a pull-up training plan in TFTNA.  You can check there for the specifics, but the general idea is not to bang out a bunch of sequential pull-ups, but to increase weight so that you can only do a couple at a time.  I haven't tried it, but I trust those guys.

I would pick a protocol, whether assisted reps in sets of 6-10, or singles at bodyweight, and do it for 4-6 weeks, 2x/week, increasing the intensity in each session. Then change the protocol. 

Add intensity by using less assistance, doing more reps in a set, more reps total in a workout, or doing them in shorter time period (more density) then after about 8-12 sessions of gradually increasing intensity, change the protocol. Do the new protocol 4-6 weeks and change again. You'll get stale and plateau on any procotol, the only constant is change, training is a marathon not a sprint, etc etc.

First, sir, I'm so sorry you're stuck with something that sucks, but really glad to hear you've got some relief, at least.

As an old lady, I've now managed to barely get to two pullups. I've been reading a bunch, because a heap of pullups don't do you any more good than a modest number, but zero is not enough. People forget that.

There are good vids out there aimed at starting from zero. The pertinent part for you, I think, is to concentrate on the down part. Do your pull-up, with good form, being careful to lower in good form also, not drop.

Then, if that's all the juice for up you have, use an assist from a spotter, or a box, to boost up, and do another lower with your full weight, in good form. Do what you can for lowers.

Made a bunch of sense to me!

I don't need them all at once, after all, so getting in five or six, spread out, is good also, IMO. 

Again, I'm an old lady, just trying to keep the parts working, not someone doing a training regimen.

Best, OLH

I like 2, but a small modification will make it even better:

3. Rig a pulley system with counter-weight for assisted pullup. Compare to using bungees, you can control the weight you remove with more precision. More importantly, with a pulley system, the assistance is constant throughout the range of motion of your pullup. With bungees, you get more assistance at the start, and little assistance near the top of your pullup. 

 I suggest you also do other complementary exercises  such as seated rows, reverse curls, dips , military press and oddly the punching bag .

Second the complementary exercises and the pulley rig if you can make that happen. 

The "down" is definitely worthy of your focus as the eccentric contraction will significantly increase strength with fewer reps (thereby reducing risk of connective tissue overuse injury).

As suggested above, I'd start with the assisted protocol, then move to the body weight protocol, emphasizing the downward motion during, going slow and with good form. After that, the TFTNA protocol should work pretty well (I've personally used it to good effect). 

Best of luck!

aikibujin wrote:

I like 2, but a small modification will make it even better:

3. Rig a pulley system with counter-weight for assisted pullup. Compare to using bungees, you can control the weight you remove with more precision. More importantly, with a pulley system, the assistance is constant throughout the range of motion of your pullup. With bungees, you get more assistance at the start, and little assistance near the top of your pullup. 

What this guy said. Also nutrition, frequency, rest time (between sets), intensity, among other things will all affect your productivity. Rig up the pulley system with the right amount of weight so you can successfully execute 8-10 pull ups. Rest for 2 minutes and then do another set. Repeat this for a total of 4 sets. If you find that you can't complete 8-10 reps for all 4 sets, you might need to add a bit more assisted weight. Once you get to a point where you're completing 10 reps for all 4 sets, reduce the assisted weight by 10 lbs. Take at least 4 days of rest in between each training session and get at least 8 hours of sleep each night. Eat 30 grams of protein every 3-4 hours. As others have mentioned, adding other supplemental exercises into the workout will help encourage/boost muscle growth.

Rui,

I like the chart you posted, but the asterisk part isn't there (is it?).  So if Power and Strength are both 2-5 reps, how do you train each differently?

My highly experienced but grossly uneducated guess is that the difference lies in how you do the reps.

John Byrnes wrote:

I would hire an experienced trainer.  Personally I would look for a Strong First SFG coach or one who focuses in Power lifting.  I know it seems counter-intuitive but based on what you have been dealing with I think you need to focus on building full body strength to help reverse or at least slow down the effects of your disease.  Once you have that under control you can refocus on your climbing specific strength.  Pull-ups are good, but squats, deadlifts, and presses are better for muscle building.

As for your pull-up training program I would take a different approach.  While hypertrophy training sounds promising, my experience is that high rep pull-up training for climbers usually ends in elbow tendonitis.  Focus on singles at body weight or above if you can manage it.  Start with 1 pullup every minute on the minute for 10 minutes.  Add weight as you can until you can do a pull-up with your previous body weight, then drop to body weight and do 5 x 2.   Train every third day.  Good luck.

Troy S wrote:

Eat 30 grams of protein every 3-4 hours. .

So if I weigh 61kg (I do), I am recommended to eat 50gm of protein a day up to about 80 if I'm really strenuously training. Eating 120 to 180gm per day as you suggest is at best wasteful and more likely, dangerous long term.

The rest of the advice I've read here has been good. I'm formulating a plan based on things I've read here.

BTW, I do actually do a fair amount of whole body training. It's not like I'm concentrating on pull ups to the exclusion of absolutely everything else. I posed a question on pull ups because that is pretty specifically where I'm affected the worst. I also have deficits from the disease in my shoulders, core, and quads, but it's nowhere near as dramatic.

I'd use the pulley system approach recommended. That way you can gauge how much weight you can actually pull. Then I'd read up on Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 program because his principles are freaking solid for strength gain. A bunch of guys here in SLC have found a lot of success with it, but I'm not sure how many others have applied it to pullups other than me. 

The only exception to his principles is that I do a pullup workout twice a week instead of once a week.

But I also don't have any experience with your condition so I can't say my suggestion is really on par. But I hope it helps.

https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-how-to-build-pure-strength

http://crossfitnorthvancouver.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Wendler-PDF.pdf

I'd do them, whatever protocol you use, on rings, or at a minimum switching your grip  every set from pronated to neutral to supinated (std pullup w/ palms away, palms facing each other, std chinup w/ palms facing toward you).

Fixed bar pullups for high reps always inflamed my elbows, mostly with the "golfers elbow" epicondylitis tendon problems. 

Look up grease the groove method. A lot of positive results on many forums.

Negative pull-ups work well. Put a chair under your pull-up bar so you can stand up to the top of your pull-up position, slowly pick your legs up so the weight shifts to your arms and then lower yourself slowly. Stand up and repeat. It is easier to lower yourself than lift yourself and keeps your body in the correct position. I had better luck doing this than a pulley system attached to my harness as it felt like the weight was pulling my hips up and body out of position.  A chest harness may help keep your body in position but might get in the way depending on where the pulley system is located.

Sir? I would remind you that a great many climbers who fall outside the box of fit male, are climbing pretty happily without a whole lot of pullups in them. 

I have two. I'm proud of that, actually. Most women have zero. Most kids have zero. People who are injured or ill may have zero.

FWIW, I don't train. I should, but I loathe exercise. I got those "pullups" by working about a dozen shifts as a courier, 2 or so a week for a couple months. It involved about 350 "reps" of 15-40 pound tubs being loaded in and out of a van, and on and off a cart. Around 6,000 pounds each day I did that, lol! Got the same muscles without ever having my arms over my head, or doing dips.

My point is that there are lots of ways to skin this cat. 

And. You aren't alone. :-)

Best, Helen

I do wish you the best, don't let this get ya too down! 

I would do the pulleys as your current overall rep load is too low to promote significant strength gains, and to the extent possible, hypertrophy. I would try to really push for a little hypertrophy given your condition, so aiming for 20-25 total reps is more helpful than 7-8 really hard ones. As far as structuring, 5-3-1 and fighter pullup plan are probably good but I think the more important thing is getting the overall volume right. 

I reiterate the several responses above about doing negatives.

Check out the website 50pullups.com There is already a regimen detailed there for those who can't do a pull-up or less than 4. There are different successive regimens there to use as your max reps increase.

http://www.50pullups.com/50-pullups-programme/less-4-pullups

I've used these regimens and have been able to increase my max reps. The further you progress and increase your max reps, the more these regimens become endurance oriented. So, In addition to work-outs listed there I also do weighted pullups to train strength keeping my reps to 3 and doing only 3 to 4 sets perhaps once or twice a week. There is a point where any additional stimulus doesn't result in increased gains once you recover, but only digs a deeper hole into your recovery time. Figuring out that threshold is the tricky part.

I think it is important to have a varied approach that trains the different aspects of your physiology that result in overall fitness. For example, do some high rep work-outs to train endurance which is a different energy system (combination of anaerobic glycolysis (lactic system) and aerobic glycolysis) than low reps with higher weight. The endurance training will trigger other adaptions like increased capillarization of the tissues and more efficient lactate removal in addition to some cardio-vascular adaption. The strength training (targeting creatine phosphate energy system) will result initially in neuro-muscular adaptions like being able to recruit more fibers and perhaps decreasing the feedback reflex of the golgi-tendon organs. All this is to say that your body adapts differently to variations in your approach and using some basic exercise physiology info like that chart posted above with reps/response can go a long way. By increasing strength you also affect your endurance and I'd bet that likewise there are benefits to your strength by training endurance (such as more efficient blood delivery to the muscles)

Another option for assisted pullups is to go to a gym that has one of those nice assisted pullup machines with a platform you stand on and select how much weight to take off.

If the waist harness turns out to not work well you could try standing in a piece of webbing attached to the pulley system so the counterweight is pulling you up from the bottoms of your feet.

Wishing you the best on your journey. Stick with it!