WTF is fourth class, and how/should you protect it?

Edit: changed the title for the excellent and useful thread drift into class ratings OLH

I know I will have some terrain coming up with exposure, third or fourth class (I'm not clear on the difference). 

How do you minimize the injury/fatality risk, if you choose to do so?

I have two parts to this:

One example will be a rocky traverse/scramble approach to part of a climbing area, with the rock face on one side and a significant, but not huge, drop off on the other. I'm okay with that, but partway along, it becomes semi hands and knees on whatever you can find, including tree roots, where the "trail" is missing.

A fall might not be fatal, but it would be a splat on rocks for sure and broken bones.

• Second, more general, do belay devices still work as expected if a climber is moving horizontally, such as moving across a ledge at the start of a climb? Or would that automatically necessitate an anchor at the belay end?

Thanks! 

Best, Helen

It sounds like your options are either a) "free solo" it or b) treat it like a climb and protect it

A belay device will work fine for someone moving horizontally but something has to be attached to the wall between the belayer and the leader or else there's no belaying going on. There's just two people attached to a rope, if the leader falls the belayer won't be far behind and the only protection involved will be the leaders body cushioning the fall of the belayer

Jack Ripper wrote:

*palm to forehead*

Do you have any idea how discouraging some of you are to beginners, or, even just to those seeking to learn more?

You place protection and belay just like you would on any other route.  The issue is that a fall will create a pendulum, so you have to place gear with appropriate spacing so that a fall is not going to allow the climber to deck as they swing on whatever rope is out.  You also need to be aware of the way the forces are going to apply on the belayer in case of a fall.  If you are comfortable with it, you can simulclimb roped together, again, placing pro as needed.

Jack Ripper wrote:

*palm to forehead*

Geez, you've got aid and R ticks, why don't you come on here with something helpful? You probably didn't get where you are with your climbing right out of the box, either, eh?

And, I have to admit, Jack Ripper and Homer do suggest you might have a sense of humor??? :-)

Please consider joining the conversation.

BTW Helen, most of us know and have read the Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills book, if you don't have a copy get one, It's the best. REI carrys it. You might find a used older 3rd edition at Deseret Industries on Fairview for a buck or 2 which would still be good info (generally). Real good stuff, they're on the 8th edition now: https://www.rei.com/product/811865/mountaineering-the-freedom-of-the-hills-8th-edition They'll parse out the 3rd and 4th class thing better than anyone would.  

Thanks, all.

I'm familiar with the classes, it's just seems pretty fuzzy how folks would class 3 to 5.0, and if they are comfortable soloing those. I'm not, although I'm pretty bold once a rope is strapped on, lol!

The device question was prompted by knowing what happens to braking when the orientation is flipped on an ATC. This has been in many threads, usually something to do with FF2 falls.

FOTH, and similar, are fine, but it isn't always easy to figure how a technique for a big objective shrinks down to a short section of an approach.

Thanks! Helen

Old lady H wrote:

it's just seems pretty fuzzy how folks would class 3 to 5.0, and if they are comfortable soloing those. 

I've noticed there seems to be a bit of disagreement about the exact definitions! To me, the difference between 3rd class and 4th class is that on 3rd, I may need to use my hands a bit but I could still have both trekking poles out if I wanted, whereas if it's 4th class I'll put the poles away because I'll need my hands too much and there wouldn't be useful places to set the tips against anyway. I have a hard time differentiating between harder 4th class and 5.easy though. EDIT: I retract this statement after reviewing the original YDS definitions.

I've done something similar on ridges in Hawaii. Me and my brothers went on a trip recently where the sections of the ridge are about 1 foot wide with a 150ft drop on either side. Since there was a fair amount of trees, we just slung them as pro. We used ATC's and my DMM pivot guide device  to belay with but a Grigri style or a Click-Up style device would probably work fine as long as you maintained the correct device orientation.

I think of it as class 3 is something I could down climb facing outward (back to the rock), and class 4 is something that to down climb I would be facing into the rock.

It's fuzzy/subjective to say when 3rd class becomes 4th becomes easy 5th. Eventually you will figure it out for yourself, where the distinction lies.  It isn't really important, unless you're researching an approach/descent or if you're giving beta to a fellow climber, in which case it is useful to be comparing apples to apples.  If you know you're uncomfortable and prefer to rope up on 4th class terrain, for example, you can plan accordingly.    

Where and how you protect a climb, whether it's a 4th class scramble or 5.hard is entirely up to you, so don't put too much weight into guidebook suggestions or what you read online.  You have to figure out what you are comfortable with, and whether you want to push that limit (and accept the risks).  If you are pursuing traditional climbs in the mountains, there will be times were a fall will be very bad or fatal.  Realistically, you can't rope up for everything and you have to come to terms with the risks, or else you will move so slow you won't get anything accomplished.

My personal definition: 3rd is casual scrambling, where a slip or fall would result in a moderate to severe injury, but not death. 4th is very easy, exposed climbing where a fall would probably result in death.  5th is when I am putting my climbing shoes on and, more than likely, tying into a rope.  

If you're holding a trekking pole in each hand, you're hiking.  If you're scrambling with trekking poles in your hands, try not to stab yourself.  

Going back to your original post, I hope you aren't moving over exposed 3-4th class on your hands and knees, as you implied.  That would suggest that you are so gripped/scared that you might not be ready for it.  Excepting a very strange or unique move, you're going to be more secure if you stay on your feet and use good climbing technique and balance.  

Old Lady H....   just make sure you have a good leader who recognizes the danger involved with climbing sideways and will do whats needed to protect a second. 

3rd class vs 4th class..... a classic debate. I have done dead vert 3rd class where a fall would be death, 4th class.... you depend on the pressure of your hands more, but if you know how to climb it's not really 5th class. 

I think a good skill to have is the ability to free solo, at a middle climbing grade, no matter what the exposure is, you need to beable to do this in the Mountains to go to the bathroom sometimes. :>)

be extra carefull hanging onto roots and such, don't trust crappy stone or plants, not worth it. 

There are several important considerations for protecting horizontal climbs.  One thing that has been touched on but not fully is that you need extra considerations for protecting your second.  A common beginner mistake is to put in a piece before the traverse, get across, then start climbing without putting in a piece after the traverse.  This sets up a nasty potential pendulum, because the follower will clean the piece before traversing.  Same thing goes for roofs, for that matter: always make sure you place protection AFTER the feature for your follower.

Direction of pull is also much more complicated ina traverse compared to vertical climbing.  Building multidirectional anchors is extra important.  Also remember that, just like with multipitch, a fall before the first piece (or if it blows) will lead to a leader below the belayer (though not quite a FF2 on a traverse), so you will need to be ready to catch your climber upside down if using an ATC (brake UP, not down!).  Even if the likelihood of this happening is extremely low, you still want to practice catching/holding someone this way, as it is super awkward.

So it sounds like your questions is can you safely belay a traverse with an ATC. The answer is yes.  Also, you can always avoid sideways pull by using a directional piece. Your second question was how to protect a traverse (I think).  Assuming you know that you would need to be attached to an anchor or have a piece (ie, anchor) between you and the climber, then your main concern becomes a swinging fall applying force along a range of angles. This compromises a single piece, which is designed for a single direction of pull. Using two opposing pieces for protection mitigates this issue.

Oh, one other thing that SHOULD be obvious but wasn't to me the first time I did it because I'm an idiot: don't expect to be able to do a big traverse, then climb straight up very far.  90o angles are not your friend!  Expect to pitch out small sections and build a belay before drastically changing direction.

Helen, have you read Freedom of the Hills? If you're as much of a beginner as you keep saying you are, then you'd get a lot of useful info out of it, including this subject. 

There are two distinct things I'm asking.

That awkward, sketchy (to me), short, yer gonna break something part of a local approach.

Second, is me, being curious yet again.

On the second one, I can't see it being something you'd run into on single pitch, except in really unique circumstances.

Multi, you bet I would expect to move horizontally on a 4th class ledge, from one pitch to another. And, as I would most likely be a second, darn straight I want to know at least enough to question if one of you is aiming to kill me. :-)

Realistically, number one once the snow melts, so maybe a couple months, maybe less.

Number two? Maybe never, except if I get out with one of you on your beloved home turf some year.

I work in a library, so yeah, I've had way more than the average number of books piled around at various times. FOTH was around I'm sure, but early enough it was way too much. I know you all love it, but when it was suggested to me two years ago it was incomprehensible. Some of you are, too, but you're more fun!

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

I work in a library, so yeah, I've had way more than the average number of books piled around at various times. FOTH was around I'm sure, but early enough it was way too much. I know you all love it, but when it was suggested to me two years ago it was incomprehensible. Some of you are, too, but you're more fun!

Best, Helen

Although Helen works in a library, she can't actually read yet. It's hard for her to admit, so forgive her.

FrankPS wrote:

Although Helen works in a library, she can't actually read yet. It's hard for her to admit, so forgive her.

Bailey's, Frank, Bailey's n coffee

Then I'd suggest picking it up again. There's a section on protecting traverses, as well as a section on 3rd and 4th class terrain. Bottom line however, if you're not feeling safe, do something to protect yourself; whether it be tying in and protecting this traverse of yours, or crawling on your hands and knees to get to where you need to go. If the approach is borderline too sketchy for you though, why not just pick a different route? Sounds to me like you're near some decent climbing, one would think you have plenty of other options route-wise.

Eplumer400 wrote:

Then I'd suggest picking it up again. There's a section on protecting traverses, as well as a section on 3rd and 4th class terrain. Bottom line however, if you're not feeling safe, do something to protect yourself; whether it be tying in and protecting this traverse of yours, or crawling on your hands and knees to get to where you need to go. If the approach is borderline too sketchy for you though, why not just pick a different route? Sounds to me like you're near some decent climbing, one would think you have plenty of other options route-wise.

Why not a different route? Because this is local rock that isn't columnar basalt, and there's a route up there I might actually be able to nail, on lead, first shot. And the locals are all laughing at me now, because I'm sure they know where I mean.

Sure, I'll grab some books and get after it. Multi, modest multi, is probably lurking out there I expect. Some peak bagging too, so yes, she's got homework, like always, it seems.