A Plea to Gym Setters

t.farrell wrote:Why don't you volunteer some of your time to set some routes if you're unhappy with the quality?

The larger establishments don't like amateurs (as in not a professional setter) setting routes. Some have setting "teams" and only they are allowed to set routes. And if all routes have to be approved by one guy...well...then you're going to be stuck with one style.

If gym setters got paid well enough, they might just be better. As soon as a setter becomes experienced enough in my gym, they get a real job and we start the process over.

Also, two more problems are competition and access.

There needs to be competition in the market to force innovation and prevent the malaise of monopoly and shitty management, and there needs to be access to real climbing for the setters so setters have a clue what outdoor climbing is.

Seems like the economics of climbing are a total bitch.

jmmlol wrote:@slim, it sounds like we could be climbing at the same gym. I've lost track of how many times the last move on a boulder is a desperate jump cross to the top of the wall or the amount of pretzel beta I have to use for all the double gastons. I've more or less had to give up on projecting due to the lack of AC and high amounts of awful slopers they set. Oh well, at least we have a good campus board.

ha ha, if your gym doesn't have AC, we are probably going to the same gym. luckily, the humidity is only around 80%.... it does smell like teen spirit though...

it does have a good campus board, a pretty good moon board (a little to close to the wall behind though), and an ok attempt at a system board (although they should make it symmetric - almost all of the pockets are set up for a right hand).

J Q wrote:If gym setters got paid well enough, they might just be better. As soon as a setter becomes experienced enough in my gym, they get a real job and we start the process over.

I don't think that pay/skill/experience is the issue; the problem is the setter's objective. There are plenty of highly skilled setters who set problems that are useless for training. They set great problems, but in a volume/sloper/dyno style. A mediocre setter trying to set trainer problems will be more useful than a highly skilled setter trying to set comp problems.

I can see how the circus-trick thing could get way out of hand, but vertical crimpy routes with bad feet pretending to imitate outdoor climbing aren't a good thing either.

Open-hand climbing on edges that aren't too small, slopers, and pinches will provide good conditioning without risking direct or overuse injuries from crimping. All the outdoor climber should expect from gym climbing is good upper-body conditioning and improved body-position strategies for very steep rock. Those ingredients, by themselves, may not elevate your outdoor climbing that much---until you bring to bear the kind of footwork skills that it seems only real rock can provide.

This is not the fault of the gym or the setters. The problem is expecting to get something from the indoor medium that may not be available.

"All the outdoor climber should expect from gym climbing is good upper-body conditioning and improved body-position strategies for very steep rock."

I think a gym climber can expect quite a bit more than that from a properly set boulder problem or route. The question is whether the setters want to provide it and if they are directed to by gym managers and owners. In fact for time-challenged serious climbers such as myself the gym is integral to maintaining some semblance of fitness and setting that undermines that goal is a huge waste of my time and I suspect many others, many of whom are too polite to whine about it.

Let's put this injury thing to rest. I don't care what's on the wall -- if you get hurt it's your fault. It's been mentioned several times up-thread that small holds are hardly the major cause for injuries. I'll back away from some crazy skeleton swing between jugs and head straight to the crimps. The folks who know how to train don't (generally) injure themselves with haphazard, jump-on-whatever gym climbs.

It's evident that two, maybe 2.5 populations of climbers exist. (1) the goal-oriented, time-constrained,try-hard folks (me), and the (2) recreational to moderate conditioning folks, who aim to perhaps maintain what they gain from rock climbing but aren't looking to train.

Again, a great compromise solution is to keep setting as is being done, but build some training-specific walls (Moon, various angle boards covered in holds) in addition to standard training devices (hangboard, campus board). The training movement is picking up speed, and more and more serious climbers are building home walls to fill the void created with modern setting. I used to be one of those until I moved into a house with limited garage space. This way the business needs are fully satisfied: You can attract all the recreational folks while maintaining the die-hard trainers.

I don't know of why you posted this on here. No gym route setters are gonna be on a forum for outdoor climbing. They're all out training parkour moves on shitty euro slab volumes.They don't know or where climbing forums are because they can only find world Cup video on YouTube. Kilter commentary is right on. Those chuffers wouldn't know how to make good crimps if their lives depended on it.

Blake Allen Green wrote:I don't know of why you posted this on here. No gym route setters are gonna be on a forum for outdoor climbing. They're all out training parkour moves on shitty euro slab volumes.They don't know or where climbing forums are because they can only find world Cup video on YouTube. Kilter commentary is right on. Those chuffers wouldn't know how to make good crimps if their lives depended on it.

This is a joke, right?

Kilter crimps are amazing.

First, few setters with experience would set very thin crimps with bad feet. There's nothing worse in setting than knowing that you contributed to or caused an injury unnecessarily.

Second, trick moves have their place but are we really saying that World Cup/trick problems are totally taking over indoor climbing? Tie into a top rope or lead climb for ";outdoor training.";

Getting what you seem to want: pull down holds and bad feet, sounds like boring route setting, and not the way to improve movement or technique. Slopers, strange sequences and foot-work intensive climbs with OPEN-grip holds improve climbing more than anything (climbing on your feet, staying under the holds...) and if you don't want to do the weird boulders, don't. Though a little bit of work on those will surely improve coordination, flexibility, nerve, creativity and contact strength to name a few.

Ps. This comes from a professional climbing coach, setter AND trad sport boulder mountain waterfall mud choss granite limestone crack pocket tufa hueco tuff basalt loving cam placing draw clipping weirdo.

Pps. Kilter grips are among the best on the market for forcing body position and deadpoints IMO

Blake Allen Green wrote:I don't know of why you posted this on here. No gym route setters are gonna be on a forum for outdoor climbing. They're all out training parkour moves on shitty euro slab volumes.They don't know or where climbing forums are because they can only find world Cup video on YouTube.

Ah, excuse me, I'm a route setter.

My gym is neither tall nor steep. Because of this, in order to "get" the grade, I need to be creative. Small holds and feet? Yes. Tricky-dick sequences, yes. Moves that are easy with momentum but hard statically, yes.

I don't onsight grade but red-point grade, like Rifle. So it may feel like 5.11 the first time, but once you figure out the beta, it's really 5.9. The routes make you think and use technique.

Unexpected mantels, bridges & stems, twists and flags, step- and cross-throughs, grab-the-hold-build-your-feet-and-turn-it-into-an-undercling... you get the idea. If you have to make a huge reach or use a shouldery circus move, you're doing it wrong.

Most of my sequences you'll find commonly outside. One of my current routes is named "Eldo Highstep" and if you climb in Eldo, you'll be right at home. I've set "Dancing Pickle" which climbs like its namesake in Rifle. Have you done "El Matador" at the Tower? "The Match Game" makes you match. "Pinch-fest" and "28 feet of Meat" (sic) from Rifle, Horsetooth sit-starts, etc.

What I've consistently seen is that people who are "gym climbers" have shitloads of trouble with my routes. They complain about small foot-jibs on a 5.9, "Our fingers aren't as strong as yours", but the real problem is their feet and toes aren't strong and they don't know how to use a small jib.

They rarely look down and wouldn't recognize a mantel at their waist if it bit them. Or a toe-jam in a corner. A smear or chimney move. It goes on...

I climb in Rifle a lot, so slopers, pinches, gastons and weird beta are status quo. Shelf Road can be monotonous so I don't set routes that are all crimpers. I've done a lot of trad so mantels, jams, smears, etc. are incorporated.

So I guess I agree with the OP that World Cup Bouldering, for example, doesn't have much in common with real rock but I at least, as a route setter, try to incorporate real rock sequences in my routes.

For the record: I am not anti-pinch/sloper/jug. Nor am I pro only-crimps-and-bad-feet.

I apologize for misleading half of those here.

Rauzer wrote:First, few setters with experience would set very thin crimps with bad feet.

I don't think people on this thread are suggesting every problem have crimps and bad feet. There are many ways to set problems that will actually increase functional strength for rock climbing. Comp style problems are not one of those ways. I am also not looking to improve my rock technique by climbing indoors.

Great gyms for training on the front range - Cats, BRC, DBC South

Byrnes' setting sounds great. Perhaps one distinction in his favor is that he climbs a lot outside (not just bouldering), and that for many years. My suspicion is that quite a few setters don't have that kind of experience, and so their conception of difficulty is in some sense narrower.

rgold wrote:All the outdoor climber should expect from gym climbing is good upper-body conditioning and improved body-position strategies for very steep rock. Those ingredients, by themselves, may not elevate your outdoor climbing that much---until you bring to bear the kind of footwork skills that it seems only real rock can provide.

I'd certainly agree with this, at least based upon my own experiences. On the type of stuff I climb (mostly granite; not a lot of steep sport), I notice some big gaps in contact (i.e., crimp) and core strength when I go outside. Having said, there are so many younger climbers absolutely crushing it outside who's primary source of training appears to be inside. The type of rock or climbing doesn't seems to make much difference either. I can see how lots of indoor climbing will get you sick strong to climb at Rifle, but then these same climbers go the the Buttermilks and destroy there as well. I think it was Alex Megos recently was working something outside without success (which happens rarely I assume) and observed that he needed to go train more.

I come from a bit different perspective, in that I am a volunteer setter in a university gym, part of the outdoors program, and am also an outside climber, which is where I started, and my preference.

But, I am a newish, untalented, unskilled, short, old, not strong, semi falling apart climber, no matter the venue. Which means, as a setter, I am specifically trying to make fun climbs that anyone can do, easiest of the easies. I will also aim to incorporate something a brand new climber can easily "master", with some hints, like little traverses that you can just stroll across, IF you turn sideways and simply walk. I advocate for traverses in general, actually.

With some simple routes, that also means there is something for all of you to run laps on, or work when you are injured. And, routes to elicit that smile we love to see on first time on a rope climbers. And, stuff for the big group of people who are there for a much more fun way toward basic fitness than actual exercise. Climbing in a gym is also where you might meet those kind people like myself, who will offer outside opportunities to climb, even providing a harness and helmet, for those who've been bit by the bug.

Also means I might get up something. Maybe. Lol!

Keep the comments rolling, these threads do actually help people like me know what at least some of you like and dislike.

Best, Helen

Rauzer wrote:First, few setters with experience would set very thin crimps with bad feet. There's nothing worse in setting than knowing that you contributed to or caused an injury unnecessarily. Second, trick moves have their place but are we really saying that World Cup/trick problems are totally taking over indoor climbing? Tie into a top rope or lead climb for ";outdoor training."; Getting what you seem to want: pull down holds and bad feet, sounds like boring route setting, and not the way to improve movement or technique. Slopers, strange sequences and foot-work intensive climbs with OPEN-grip holds improve climbing more than anything (climbing on your feet, staying under the holds...) and if you don't want to do the weird boulders, don't. Though a little bit of work on those will surely improve coordination, flexibility, nerve, creativity and contact strength to name a few. Ps. This comes from a professional climbing coach, setter AND trad sport boulder mountain waterfall mud choss granite limestone crack pocket tufa hueco tuff basalt loving cam placing draw clipping weirdo. Pps. Kilter grips are among the best on the market for forcing body position and deadpoints IMO

Looking over your ticklist I'm just a little dubious about this post but maybe I missed something. The point being made here is if gyms drift more and more towards parkour, those of us with limited time and specific goals (which is what training is about) and the experience and knowledge to act on them are going to have to find another option.

Peter Beal wrote: Looking over your ticklist I'm just a little dubious about this post but maybe I missed something. The point being made here is if gyms drift more and more towards parkour, those of us with limited time and specific goals (which is what training is about) and the experience and knowledge to act on them are going to have to find another option.

ditto. i find it interesting when folks claim pinches, slopers, and general gym climbing are going to magically hone your techniques, etc. then i click on their page to see what they have been climbing... ah, that explains it. gym climbing on modern style setting just tends to reinforce bad habits, and it doesn't really develop the strength needed for most styles of outdoor climbing.

getting back to the injury issue... i have had a LOT more overuse injuries (wrists/elbows/shoulders) climbing on weird pinch/sloper routes than i have fingery routes.

also - i completely agree w/ JCM about preferring a medium skilled setter who sets good, applicable routes over a level 4 setter who sets pointless art pieces.

I think that within bounds, pinches, large slopers, mantling and pressing on volumes, and any other reasonably ergonomic hold our shapers can conceive are good training for rock climbing. Save the wildest trick moves, all routesetting is just making up stuff that involves fun movement in the vertical realm.

Pinches, slopers, pockets, edges, huecoes, toe hooks, knee bars, compression and even... bicycles, all happen outside. To be a solid climber on all rock types, and if you're using your time in the gym to prep for outside, I'd say that your hand and body should be ready for any kind of hold that hands can use and God can weld. Also a gym should have variety or only one set would enjoy their time.

As for an entire bouldering gym being set like parkour circus trick stuff, that would be as limited as an entire gym attempting to be set ";;like outdoor";; or ";; as training for outdoor.";; Be a routesetter for a minute and ask yourself, I should set this one ";;like outdoor.";; What would that mean? Like outdoor where?

The Wasatch range alone has cobbles, limestone, granite-esq quartz monzonite, crazy quartzite and probably sandstone I don't know about because I'm ignorant. I'd have fun on the problems you enjoy and let your head routesetter know what you like. Believe me, ten minutes later someone else will ask for the opposite.

Indoor and outdoor climbing don't have the same relationship they once did. That relationship is also subject to region I'm sure. That said, it doesn't sound like indoor climbing is going in the direction many of you want it to. Enjoy jogging!

As for my mountain project ticklist rest assured that it's definitely all I've done.