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Sam Bedell
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Oct 12, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Sep 2012
· Points: 443
Recently a friend and I posted some beta for a local "secret cliff" on Mountain Project. Most people in the local climbing community already knew about this crag but few folks seemed to go up there and use it. I felt that more info would get people out and help clean up the routes, maybe lead to some community maintenance for the trail and other parts of the crag. Some people have shared their concern for over-crowding now that this location is "public" (it was always always public, just not well-known). I would like it if people could comment on here. If you don't know which crag we're talking about, or don't have a specific factual instance, please refrain from posting so that we can assess factual and local info. Thanks, Sam
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Paul Trendler
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Oct 12, 2016
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Bend, Oregon
· Joined Sep 2011
· Points: 111
Hi Sam, I feel like my post earlier may have been misunderstood... I apologize about that. And I can't help but feel some animosity in your reply, that I may take too personally. In no way am I trying to pick fights or be rude, Cougar is not a secret, and it's own Visit Bend TV short can provide an example. You are absolutely right when you say it has always been public, just not well known... Climber or no climber, minimal explanation typically leads to a mutual understanding of what cliff you're talking about. Think of a time you went to Cougar, or any other crag for that matter, and tried leading a route you knew nothing about. Maybe someone recommended to you, maybe you just walked right up and asked yourself if you could do it. You got yourself psyched, and climbed some random route with no chalk or rubber smears to let you know you were on track. Regardless of if you sent, hung, or bailed, that adventurous experience you had would be different. Different than any experience you can get at Smith, with it's detailed route descriptions and pages of comments, or Trout, where you more or less go straight up until you get to some chains. How would that experience be different if instead of soaking in the view, you found yourself scrolling through your phone, reading every comment because you needed a stranger on the internet to tell you the climb goes? In my experience, what makes the climbing there unique to nearby places like Smith, or Trout, is that the minimal beta requires each climber to approach it a little differently. You mentioned on the the area page how it offers a different experience when compared to other nearby areas, and that was the exact point I am trying to share. Forrest mentioned hoarding topos and being secretive, you mentioned being elitist. I had never seen the topos people have been hiding all this time, nor have I made one, so I don't feel like I can put myself in either category. I do however think there is a great deal of space between a secret, and full beta spray. Different climbing areas all over the world have different histories and traditions, and as you have most likely experienced, adventure is a defining characteristic of this crag. People will do what they want though, there is no reason for me to get in your way. If you've read this far, thank you for listening! We may not end up agreeing, but I hope we can all understand. - Paul
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Smith Rock
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Oct 13, 2016
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Seattle, WA
· Joined Mar 2012
· Points: 135
Even Trout used to be secret.
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Sam Bedell
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Oct 13, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Sep 2012
· Points: 443
Paul thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify what you are saying. I'm sorry if you felt some animosity, that was not my intention. I get what you are saying about Cougar and I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I posted routes that were intentionally vague and only did so for the multi-pitch climbs that I felt could use more traffic. Hopefully this leaves people with the option of climbing plenty of unknown stuff still but I see your point that others can add comments and beta and that this could quickly change the character of the crag. My personal frustration comes from my own experiences out there. I had a mini-epic trying to go ground up on some choss my first time out there and it was not ideal. I then went out with a guy who knew some of the routes and had a route guide that he had lost and could only remember a couple lines. As a relatively new climber I really wanted to climb multis out there but didn't have the confidence or skills to just try stuff. If someone had told me that these lines had been done, went in that approximate grade range, and had rap bolts in case you can't do it, I would have been able to do much more and would have still enjoyed an adventure. There are still plenty of places on Cougar where you can walk up to the cliff and climb without beta and I've subsequently done that but it took a few years of frustration to get to that level of comfort. I get that people aren't trying to be elitist and are happy to share beta if approached, but if you go out there and find the cliff empty who do you talk to? Those people are who I posted this info for. I am open to suggestions for how to better address concerns but that is where I'm coming from.
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slim
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Oct 13, 2016
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2004
· Points: 1,103
two can keep a secret, if both of them are dead. so, good luck!
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Max Tepfer
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Nov 3, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Oct 2007
· Points: 3,349
Cool discussion! Here are some observations: I think the key distinction here isn't that it was ever secret, but that there wasn't ever beta on the internet. (or available in a book) SamBedell wrote:My personal frustration comes from my own experiences out there. I had a mini-epic trying to go ground up on some choss my first time out there and it was not ideal. I then went out with a guy who knew some of the routes and had a route guide that he had lost and could only remember a couple lines. As a relatively new climber I really wanted to climb multis out there but didn't have the confidence or skills to just try stuff. Sam, I bet you learned more from your mini-epic than you would have learned in a year of going up there with detailed beta. I think that's the biggest consideration in this case. If beta doesn't exist, then it'll change how climbers approach the route/area and provide a very different experience than if it does exist. For you this experience was frustrating, but for others it might be fun, rewarding, scary and educational in addition to frustrating. (as it may also have been for you in addition to being frustrating) If you continue to push past the frustrating and scary experiences, it'll be all that much more rewarding when you go up there and have a great time on a route you know nothing about. SamBedell wrote:If someone had told me that these lines had been done, went in that approximate grade range, and had rap bolts in case you can't do it, I would have been able to do much more and would have still enjoyed an adventure. Honestly, where else in the region can we go to for the experience of walking up to a cliff with zero real knowledge and trusting ourselves enough to try anyway? This is one of the last places in the state where we can all go to learn to rely on our judgement, ability to bail and/or downclimb, and movement to see us safely up and down any given attempt and it would be sad to see that change. In addition to that consideration, a friend who has been going out there for decades and for whom it's a favorite crag said that since it's gone online he's seen bail 'biners and a dogfight up there for the first time ever. Lastly, to repsond Khoi's comment on the area description page, yes, it is that hard for us to ignore beta. Particularly because we're all hopelessly addicted to it. (myself included!) I typically try to learn everything I can about a route before trying it, but there are routes out there that are incredible climbs where that simply isn't an option. Having crags like Cougar that are beta-free is how we can build that confidence in ourselves to take up with us on those bigger, obscure objectives.
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Jake wander
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Nov 3, 2016
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Aug 2014
· Points: 195
if people dont want beta because it gives them a different experience... then why dont they just not read the beta?
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Max Tepfer
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Nov 3, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Oct 2007
· Points: 3,349
Jake, feel free to read the last paragraph of my post. I think I answered your question. To put it more succinctly: if the beta is out there, it'll get read.
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Wic Wahlquist
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Nov 3, 2016
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Rio Rancho, New Mexico
· Joined Apr 2014
· Points: 215
Hey all, Just wanted to add my two cents. My wife is from Oregon and we climb there every chance we get. I just want to throw this out there: The whole point of Mountain Project is to get information about climbs. Where little/no information exists, climbers get points for adding that information. If someone loves the thrill of climbing without beta, all they have to do is not look at the beta. If you want to go and enjoy the view instead of looking through your phone, don't take your phone out of your pocket. For climbers who like beta because they don't want to get stuck on a wall and lose a piece of gear bailing off a climb, this website is invaluable for giving great information from people who have experienced it first hand. Why are we being critical of Sam for posting on a website in which the entire premise of the website is to share beta on climbs? That would be like getting mad at someone for posting accurate information on Wikipedia. If you don't want to see the info, just don't look. Sam, I applaud you for updating the website as much as possible to help other climbers who want to get out on the rocks. Keep up the good work buddy! On rock!
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Jake wander
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Nov 3, 2016
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Aug 2014
· Points: 195
Wic wrote:Hey all, Just wanted to add my two cents. My wife is from Oregon and we climb there every chance we get. I just want to throw this out there: The whole point of Mountain Project is to get information about climbs. Where little/no information exists, climbers get points for adding that information. If someone loves the thrill of climbing without beta, all they have to do is not look at the beta. If you want to go and enjoy the view instead of looking through your phone, don't take your phone out of your pocket. For climbers who like beta because they don't want to get stuck on a wall and lose a piece of gear bailing off a climb, this website is invaluable for giving great information from people who have experienced it first hand. Why are we being critical of Sam for posting on a website in which the entire premise of the website is to share beta on climbs? That would be like getting mad at someone for posting accurate information on Wikipedia. If you don't want to see the info, just don't look. Sam, I applaud you for updating the website as much as possible to help other climbers who want to get out on the rocks. Keep up the good work buddy! On rock! Exactly
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Ray Pinpillage
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Nov 5, 2016
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West Egg
· Joined Jul 2010
· Points: 180
It wouldn't break my heart to see more routes put up at Cougar. I don't think all the beta in the world would cause the place to become over crowded. I thought this thread was going to be about the spot east of SR.
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Khoi
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Nov 5, 2016
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Vancouver, BC
· Joined Oct 2009
· Points: 50
Max Tepfer wrote: Lastly, to repsond Khoi's comment on the area description page, yes, it is that hard for us to ignore beta. Particularly because we're all hopelessly addicted to it. (myself included!) I typically try to learn everything I can about a route before trying it, but there are routes out there that are incredible climbs where that simply isn't an option. Having crags like Cougar that are beta-free is how we can build that confidence in ourselves to take up with us on those bigger, obscure objectives. If you find it THAT HARD to simply not click on a link then you guys really are not trying hard enough! I would argue that the number of climbers who would want beta outnumber the climbers who don't want any information of this area out there. Why should a minority of climbers who apparently claim to not be able to exercise the minuscule amount of self control that it takes to simply not read beta take priority over the rest? I've been hesitant to say it so far.... But I will now, given the hubbub roughly 8 years ago about not revealing directions to Trout Creek, and now this hubbub about this area's beta being out there, I am really wondering what's up with some Oregon climbers and their apparent obsession with keeping their local climbing areas a secret??? The world comes to Smith Rock. Is what you guys see going on there THAT objectionable???
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Ray Pinpillage
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Nov 5, 2016
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West Egg
· Joined Jul 2010
· Points: 180
Khoi wrote: If you find it THAT HARD to simply not click on a link then you guys really are not trying hard enough! I would argue that the number of climbers who would want beta outnumber the climbers who don't want any information of this area out there. Why should a minority of climbers who apparently claim to not be able to exercise the minuscule amount of self control that it takes to simply not read beta take priority over the rest? I've been hesitant to say it so far.... But I will now, given the hubbub roughly 8 years ago about not revealing directions to Trout Creek, and now this hubbub about this area's beta being out there, I am really wondering what's up with some Oregon climbers and their apparent obsession with keeping their local climbing areas a secret??? The world comes to Smith Rock. Is what you guys see going on there THAT objectionable??? If you've ever been to Cougar Crags you'd really scratch your head at this discussion. It's just a small cliff west of Bend that doesn't warrant this much hand ringing. Hell, Trout Creek doesn't warrant this much hand ringing. Smith Rock isn't jam-packed full of tourists because of the Beta; it's because it is walk up with tons of variety. You actually have to break a sweat to get to Cougar...98.7% of modern climbers aren't interested in actually breaking a sweat. This isn't unique to Oregon climbers, spend some time on Super Taco and you'll see raging butthurt 70 year old has-beens angrily screaming "get off my lawn" at anyone wanting to climb anywhere that's ever been climbed. SSDD!
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Dave McRae
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Nov 5, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Apr 2014
· Points: 1,331
IMO, somebody should write a guidebook with Cougar in it. The time is long overdue. I've climbed most of the routes, and there's no reason to hoard the place. Until there's a book, put it on MP. Anybody who wants an adventure should put up their own routes on Cougar. There's plenty of undeveloped real estate up there.
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Max Tepfer
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Nov 6, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Oct 2007
· Points: 3,349
Wic wrote:Why are we being critical of Sam for posting on a website in which the entire premise of the website is to share beta on climbs? The whole point of Mountain Project is to get information about climbs. Where little/no information exists, climbers get points for adding that information... No one is criticizing Sam. He asked for a discussion (ironically specifically from people who climb at Cougar) and now we're discussing. I agree that the point of MP is to disseminate information about climbing areas, but think that it can be overdone. Just because a climb exists, doesn't mean it needs to be on the internet in full detail. Khoi wrote:I've been hesitant to say it so far.... But I will now, given the hubbub roughly 8 years ago about not revealing directions to Trout Creek, and now this hubbub about this area's beta being out there, I am really wondering what's up with some Oregon climbers and their apparent obsession with keeping their local climbing areas a secret? This is in no way about keeping it a secret. I'm all for posting that it's a crag worth going to with plenty of quality climbing. I just don't think we should have detailed route descriptions and should try and preserve a type of experience that is rapidly disappearing from our crags. Also, I was (obviously) pro-posting about Trout. It's apples and oranges. TC is a world-class venue that every climber who likes crack climbing and/or stemming should come visit. Cougar is a fun, albeit far from world class crag that would be entirely generic if not for the fun of going out there and climbing routes without knowing anything about them. Ray Pinpillage wrote:It's just a small cliff west of Bend that doesn't warrant this much hand ringing You actually have to break a sweat to get to Cougar... It's a shorter approach to Cougar than the hike to Morning Glory Wall. Not sure how that qualifies as breaking a sweat? I do agree that it's really not that big a deal and that we're making mountains out of molehills.
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Sam Bedell
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Nov 7, 2016
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Bend, OR
· Joined Sep 2012
· Points: 443
Well this thread blew up while I was gone... For the record I appreciate EVERYONE'S posts. Thank you for sharing your opinions and experience. In response to a few comments: Bryan S, I'm not trying to post endless beta for Cougar and I don't want endless beta for my climbs. You said you would share the topo with anyone who asks, but what if they never run into you? Or what if they never realize you know what you know? I don't expect to have a conversation about Cougar or even climbing with everyone I meet and so someone who is actually interested might never know who to ask. I don't know if the topo I have is yours or someone else but I will not be sharing it, I only shared what I'd done myself. Max T, you're right, I learned a lot from that first trip up Cougar, but it made me timid to try more. Minimal beta would have allowed me to comfortably gain a lot more multi-trad experience locally. Yes, that's my own problem, and not true for all people. I didn't post all the routes I have info on or have climbed. I have done exactly what Max describes, walking up to the cliff and climbing into the unknown. I appreciate that experience and see its value. I chose to post what I see as really minimal beta for a handful of routes that I felt are worthwhile and/or could use traffic. I understand the sentiment of it getting potentially crowded when we already contend with massive over-crowding at Smith and other local outdoor rec areas. I won't personally post more unless it is due to a hazardous change in conditions. I hope that people will remain civil and not get bent out of shape about this, and respectfully consider what everyone has to say. If there are specific changes that people would like to see for these routes feel free to message me directly. For now I'm going to leave the routes I already posted on MP and I guess we'll see what the impact is next spring when the weather gets better up there. P.S. If anyone wants an unknown adventure you should head to "Cougar East" and do some of those lines (yes, they've already been done by someone). Check USFS maps, the approach is pretty straight forward if you look ahead of time.
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Trad Princess
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Nov 7, 2016
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Not That Into Climbing
· Joined Jan 2012
· Points: 1,175
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Micah Faville
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Dec 5, 2016
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Aug 2011
· Points: 0
I spent a ton of time up at cougar this last season. So much that I didn't go to smith all spring or summer. It's a treasure to have a place so close that offers such quality adventure climbing. For Christ sake take the page down
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