New Bolts on the Nose, El Capitan: one 60m rope rapping from Sickle and Dolt

rob rebel wrote:Maybe we should put a ladder in instead?

As long as it is made of natural fallen timber that would be rad!

Face palm.

Here we go again. I guess we are just writing off the nose at this point. Just try to contain all your shenanigans there okay erik?

I'm working on a mini-guide to the Nose now

I've always lamented the scarcity of beta about the Nose. I mean, do a Google search and....Nothing! Someone will have to point the route out to me the next time I'm laying in EC meadows.

Interesting comments about the congestion, and the freeway analogy. I don't think people who climb Royal Arches do so because there are one-rope rappel stations - they do it because they want to do the amazing climb. Same with the Nose. Now if you talk to people on Royal Arches, myself included, they are super stoked that there are one-rope rap stations, because they are safer and more efficient.

My comments about the congestion on the Nose because people are dealing with second ropes that they are just trailing up to Sickle to rappel down with is just an observation from spending a lot of time up there. No doubt more people might climb on the Nose if they know they can one-rope rap. I'm just saying that they, and all of us, might have a better time because of it - because we all will not have to wait below people who are dealing with blowing taglines. When people are focused on the climbing and not on the logistics, they pay better attention and there are less accidents. That's my experience at least. The SAR guys can chime in but I"m pretty sure there have been rescues off the Dolt rappels pretty much every year because someone's tag line blew away from them, after a rappel, with a knot in it and they could not pull their ropes to continue rappelling. Same thing that used to happen all the time on the Royal Arches.

I've said it before but I'll say it again: trips me out that folks are so tweaked about things getting fixed up on the Nose, a route that established with a 'Party On!' attitude of ribaldry and good times, but the nearby Salathe Wall, which is also mega-classic but was established with a super minimalist, 'As few bolts as possible' ethos is just festooned with old bolts and rusty chain - all over it, which have all been added. Also, a rappel route for one-rope rapping has been set up from the Ear to the ground. That route seems more appropriate for a 'all belays have to be natural, and if a pin falls out you have to run it out now' attitude, just saying.

Thanks for the interest! Woot!
Erik

Not all of us share your vision of grid bolting classics that have been getting along just fine for 40-60 years as "fixing up".

PS: Still waiting for an explanation of your aggressive "cleaning" on P7's midway ledge of Mideast Crisis. It really was overboard for the single loose block that was at actual issue. Made it pretty effing ugly.

Erik Sloan wrote:Interesting comments about the congestion, and the freeway analogy. I don't think people who climb Royal Arches do so because there are one-rope rappel stations - they do it because they want to do the amazing climb. Same with the Nose. Now if you talk to people on Royal Arches, myself included, they are super stoked that there are one-rope rap stations, because they are safer and more efficient. My comments about the congestion on the Nose because people are dealing with second ropes that they are just trailing up to Sickle to rappel down with is just an observation from spending a lot of time up there. No doubt more people might climb on the Nose if they know they can one-rope rap. I'm just saying that they, and all of us, might have a better time because of it - because we all will not have to wait below people who are dealing with blowing taglines. When people are focused on the climbing and not on the logistics, they pay better attention and there are less accidents. That's my experience at least. The SAR guys can chime in but I"m pretty sure there have been rescues off the Dolt rappels pretty much every year because someone's tag line blew away from them, after a rappel, with a knot in it and they could not pull their ropes to continue rappelling. Same thing that used to happen all the time on the Royal Arches. I've said it before but I'll say it again: trips me out that folks are so tweaked about things getting fixed up on the Nose, a route that established with a 'Party On!' attitude of ribaldry and good times, but the nearby Salathe Wall, which is also mega-classic but was established with a super minimalist, 'As few bolts as possible' ethos is just festooned with old bolts and rusty chain - all over it, which have all been added. Also, a rappel route for one-rope rapping has been set up from the Ear to the ground. That route seems more appropriate for a 'all belays have to be natural, and if a pin falls out you have to run it out now' attitude, just saying. Thanks for the interest! Woot! Erik

The point, Erik, is not proper anchors at the end of pitches (for convenience/safety) per se. It is about making more and more access to an already crowded climb that is feeling the impact, esp down low. The Nose does not need more convenience for Dolt runs, it needs less so that only competent and committed climbers are doing it, not anyone with a 60m rope and a handful of cams.

Fact of the matter is a day is coming when the shit and garbage/excess hardware on the route becomes "enough is enough" and permits are needed before an attempt. More convenience bolts brings that day closer, not more distant from being reality.

It is not a challenge to build a freeway in Yosemite, it is a challenge to know when to not build one.

King Tut wrote: Fact of the matter is a day is coming when the shit and garbage/excess hardware on the route becomes "enough is enough" and permits are needed before an attempt. More convenience bolts brings that day closer, not more distant from being reality.

THIS.

The less committing these routes become, the more gumbies will attempt them and the more books Erik will sell. Its incredibly disappointing how he "improves" iconic climbs under the guise of "making them safer", when in reality it is nothing more than self-serving pussification to make himself $$$. And he does it with a power-drill, no less. Its really, really sad.

Well, at least we agree to disagree. I appreciate all the comments here, and from the many who have emailed me (some folks have emailed for the updated Nose topo).

Bill Lawry - I have lived and worked in Yosemite since 2002, and have spent much, much more in just money (not the hundreds of hours volunteered) on bolts, bits, hangers, website, adobe products, etc. than I will ever make off selling a guidebook. Anyone who has made a guidebook can attest to this, total labor of love.

Moof - first I've heard of anyone cleaning off a ledge on MC. I stayed there a couple years back with six other friends - definitely wasn't us. Do you have pics?

I don't use a power drill in Yosemite - everyone knows that that is illegal. Sure got a good laugh last year, though, when I ran into Ron Skelton, 75 year old crusher/pioneer that still lives in El Portal and leads 5.11, and he started telling me about how he put up all the routes on Parkline and elsewhere with a powerdrill that he had rigged so the battery was in a super small backpack, like an early version of a camelback, and how he could just climb up and put in bolts really easily - sorry to pull the photoshop layers off your fantasy about the old guys, there KT ;)

What would folks like to see in a mini-guide to the Nose?

Woot!
Erik

Erik Sloan wrote:Well, at least we agree to disagree. I appreciate all the comments here, and from the many who have emailed me (some folks have emailed for the updated Nose topo). Bill Lawry - I have lived and worked in Yosemite since 2002, and have spent much, much more in just money (not the hundreds of hours volunteered) on bolts, bits, hangers, website, adobe products, etc. than I will ever make off selling a guidebook. Anyone who has made a guidebook can attest to this, total labor of love. Moof - first I've heard of anyone cleaning off a ledge on MC. I stayed there a couple years back with six other friends - definitely wasn't us. Do you have pics? I don't use a power drill in Yosemite - everyone knows that that is illegal. Sure got a good laugh last year, though, when I ran into Ron Skelton, 75 year old crusher/pioneer that still lives in El Portal and leads 5.11, and he started telling me about how he put up all the routes on Parkline and elsewhere with a powerdrill that he had rigged so the battery was in a super small backpack, like an early version of a camelback, and how he could just climb up and put in bolts really easily - sorry to pull the photoshop layers off your fantasy about the old guys, there KT ;) What would folks like to see in a mini-guide to the Nose? Woot! Erik

No fantasy busted here, Erik. The first ascent of Half Dome (1868) was done via bolt ladder. Robbins drilled bolt ladders when it suited him, Chouinard sold pitons etc...

And I have used a power drill, and know it can lead to bolts that one would have thought about a little deeper and wouldn't place if you had to do them all by hand.

And I don't believe your guide is tainting your views, it is a lack of foresight that sometimes comes from an even longer time frame than you have in Yosemite, or time spent outside it's bubble. You need to get out of the ditch and see that wanting more and more and more in Yosemite is limiting your view perhaps.

The Nose does not need single rope rappel routes to purely increase traffic on an already congested route.

It can be argued that the Royal Arches rap route is better than the issues in ND Gulley (ie safety and erosion).

I supported the new rap route on SoY to save the trees. I would greatly appreciate if you would ammend future editions of your guide to direct them to the rap route and not rap the route itself to protect them (see Clint's overlay on the SoY page here).

Rap route for EB is a safety concern (multiple parties and rockfall).

Rap route for Dolt Runs with one rope is none of the above. A completely separate double rope rap route already exists. Any prepared party should have 2 full length ropes on the Nose or be prepared for the consequences as part of the game, imo.

Next someone will argue that some one length of rope is ideal for NIAD attempts and re-engineer every pitch from summit to base to make that a reality.

Sorry KT, I'm not buying it. Dan McDevitt has lived, worked, climbed, and established climbs here in Yosemite since the 80s (is that more than You?). He put the FA of a bunch of routes on Fifi Buttress, and then years later he has gone back and added stations so that people can rappel those routes with one rope.

Fifi has gotten incredibly popular, but people don't talk about the crowds - they talk about how awesome the climbs are!

The Nose-In-A-Day has gotten very popular. I would estimate at least 15% of Nose parties are climbing the route in a day. With the publication of Hans' book on the topic, that will likely only increase. Most folks practice for the NIAD by doing a Dolt Run, because the lower part of the Nose has a lot of easy, but very traversing so complicated terrain (and when you climb it in a day your second has a heavy pack so, so following the traverses is tricky).

But good to hear that you approve of the SoY rappel route. Is your mark on it somewhere? Did you even contribute to it's coming about, or did you just sit online and talk about how it might need to happen, or that it should, etc?

Yosemite has a lot of issues - trails suck, bolts are old, etc. Heck three different leaders fell on three different El Cap routes last June, in 2016, when lead bolts broke on them - crazy scary. So get after it my brother - we could use the help!

Woot!
Erik

Erik Sloan wrote:Is your mark on it somewhere? Did you even contribute to it's coming about, or did you just sit online and talk about how it might need to happen, or that it should, etc?

lol awesome. love it. applies to all people complaining on the internet.

If everybody here hates this guy's bolts and guide book, go out there and remove the bolts and write a guide book that doesnt include them.

Erik Sloan wrote:Sorry KT, I'm not buying it. Dan McDevitt has lived, worked, climbed, and established climbs here in Yosemite since the 80s (is that more than You?). He put the FA of a bunch of routes on Fifi Buttress, and then years later he has gone back and added stations so that people can rappel those routes with one rope. Fifi has gotten incredibly popular, but people don't talk about the crowds - they talk about how awesome the climbs are! The Nose-In-A-Day has gotten very popular. I would estimate at least 15% of Nose parties are climbing the route in a day. With the publication of Hans' book on the topic, that will likely only increase. Most folks practice for the NIAD by doing a Dolt Run, because the lower part of the Nose has a lot of easy, but very traversing so complicated terrain (and when you climb it in a day your second has a heavy pack so, so following the traverses is tricky). But good to hear that you approve of the SoY rappel route. Is your mark on it somewhere? Did you even contribute to it's coming about, or did you just sit online and talk about how it might need to happen, or that it should, etc? Yosemite has a lot of issues - trails suck, bolts are old, etc. Heck three different leaders fell on three different El Cap routes last June, in 2016, when lead bolts broke on them - crazy scary. So get after it my brother - we could use the help! Woot! Erik

All that glitters is not gold my friend...And yes, I know Dan (introduced to him by Donny Reid, funny story have Dan tell it to you sometime).

The purpose of a Steward of Yosemite is not to make it more popular. It is more than popular enough. A Steward would be looking to preserve it, not accelerate human impact, albeit this is not an condemnation of new routes per se, it is a condemnation of accelerating the use of routes with further hardware that is not needed. You know, like bolting cracks like Dan has...

We'll check with Dan when the trail to Fifi is blown out with erosion and the E-coli counts in the drainage are rising from human waste and see if he still feels the same.

What I am talking about and a true Steward would grasp, is being aware of changes that take place over decades to the detriment of the resource, not measuring the worth of something based on the current popularity among rare visitors that have no real connection to Yosemite and just want to conveniently tick routes with no thought for the future.

What would folks like to see in a mini-guide to the Nose?


I think someone did a sit start to the Nose that I would like to know more about.

Chris C. wrote: lol awesome. love it. applies to all people complaining on the internet. If everybody here hates this guy's bolts and guide book, go out there and remove the bolts and write a guide book that doesnt include them.

Well my friend, seeing as I did the FA of Sons of Yesterday and advocated for saving the trees (that my putting up the route is killing) I got a little more dog in the fight than you.

King Tut wrote: Well my friend, seeing as I did the FA of Sons of Yesterday and advocated for saving the trees (that my putting up the route is killing) I got a little more dog in the fight than you.

That's great! Do you really think that your one-sided argument with Erik is going to convince him to do anything? Now why don't you go take the bolts out and stop complaining on the internet.

I've got 0 dog in the fight, I honesty DGAF about this area. I do GAF about this waste of a thread pushing down other more interesting threads on the forum though. We need more doing and less internet-complaining!

Unsubscribed.

Sorry for clogging up the cyber waves, Chris C. For sure the intention here is to make sure Nose climbers know of changes that have occurred on the route, and to try and get some feedback on how I could make the best guide to the best climb in the world. You sure you don't want to climb it? It's pretty fun!

FWIW, I support King Tut's hesitation here. As I understand it, the issue is not about whether to replace aging hardware (I think 99% of us agree on that) but to think really hard before adding new rappel anchors.

I wish someone who knows more about urban planning would post some data about how expansion of freeway capacity affects traffic. I think it would be a useful lens through which to view this debate.

RyanO wrote: I wish someone who knows more about urban planning would post some data about how expansion of freeway capacity affects traffic. I think it would be a useful lens through which to view this debate.

Why are you assuming that the conclusions drawn from this data would be translatable to a rap route on El cap?

I seriously question the similarity between mass transit and a rap route.

Chris C. wrote: That's great! Do you really think that your one-sided argument with Erik is going to convince him to do anything? Now why don't you go take the bolts out and stop complaining on the internet.

YES!

you are the most self centered person I've ever meet....i have been at more than a few of your YOS campfires that you invite everyone to. Eric is going to do everything he wants.....because he wants the attention.