Fleece or Puffy?

I'm looking to make a new jacket system. My current one is polertec 300 fleece, but it's a little bulky for shoving in a pack. Do people prefer puffy over fleece?
To be clear, this will be my heavier insulating layer and it will be able to zip together with a gore-tex shell. I will also use it as my everyday winter coat with it attached to the gore-tex. I've only used fleece before and have never had a puffy.
Again, I'm making this so I don't care about what brand/model you use as that will mean nothing to me. How thick is it? How well does it compress? and does it keep you warm enough? How much does the stuffing keep it from breathing (if it doesn't breath then the gore-tex isn't as useful)?
I know the fleece is going to tend to be more durable, but I can use a thicker fabric to in-case the stuffing for the puffy if I want.

Well seeing as you're tackling a project of this size, I would assume you can sew well so I guess the difference in difficulty between sewing a fleece jacket and sewing a baffled down jacket can be ignored.

A quality down jacket is hands down warmer for its weight, and will compress much much smaller. I recently made a vest out of polartec thermal pro high loft, and I think my 15* down quilt still packs down smaller.

If you plan on sweating while wearing this jacket, go with fleece. If you only put this layer on when you stop to rest, I'd go with down.

The warmth per weight of down will decrease as you use heavier fabrics, and the compressibility will decrease with lower fill power down. If you go overkill with shell material you may be better of with quality fleece.

Because the shell material has to be down proof, it will also be slightly less breathable. However this is usually a non-factor as you should really try to avoid sweating into a down jacket. Although I'm not fortunate enough to live in an area where this become necessary, people who have to hike in down due to extreme cold sometimes use vapor barrier systems to keep any moisture out of the down.

Down layers need to be babied a bit more than fleece. It won't insulate when wet and is often composed of more delicate materials. On the flipside, a good down jacket will keep you way warmer for much less weight, and will basically disappear into your pack.

if youre using it while active, especially under a rain jacket ... or in any humid conditions use fleece or synthetic ... otherwise as james said down is warmer for the weight for static relatively dry situations

for the "warmest" fleece get polartec thermal pro high loft ... the fuzzier the better, which also works better when its soaking wet

for maximum warmth when wet or damp just remember this ...

fluffy like a bunny and fuzzy like a bear

it minimizes the contact area

;)

I'm struggling to see exactly what you're going for.
From what i understand you are trying to create a two in one with your goretex jacket, correct?

This system is kind of "old-school" tactics. Nothing against you or your project, but why do you feel the need for the armor/bulk of a Gore-Tex shell now-a-days? Also, when companies made these "system" jackets, they specifically built them with a two-way zipper sewn to the insulation liner.

I highly doubt anyone ever did or does sell a puffy liner with a two-way zipper that will zip into a shell. Why not buy a new, hydrophobic down belay jacket? Pertex exterior fabrics are highly water resistant and if you're using it for a winter jacket, you really don't need to worry too much about water penetration. The new hydrophobic down works very, very well combating most of down's negative aspects when it comes to water/moisture.

Yes, I have done plenty of sewing before including my current jacket. I like being able to use the same thing for a variety of things rather than having a bunch of specialized things. So when I'm just going to and from work during the winter I can have the insulating layer attached to the shell for extra warmth and wind protection without having to put on two jackets. But during the warmer months I can just use the shell for rain protection, or when hiking/climbing I can use either the insulating layer and/or the shell depending on conditions.
Yes, it will have a two-way zipper on the insulating layer that will zip to an extra zipper on the shell, it will be specifically made that way as I am making it.
I like most everything about my current system except I would like both jackets to be a little longer and for the hood to fit better. Also it's about 4 years old now and with every day use for those 4 years including everything from going to the store in wet snow to a 30 day trip in the Wind River, it's just time to replace it. Also it was ~$100 for the materials for my current one, so I don't really want to then shell out $400-800 to replace it with two dead birds that don't have features I want.
If I go with a puffy I would do synthetic rather than down because I will end up hiking in it and so would likely sweat. I do avoid that still with the fleece just because it's better to not be to the point of sweating if you can avoid it, but sometimes I choose to deal with the sweat rather than trying to shed layers in a frigid wind.

AlpineIce wrote:I highly doubt anyone ever did or does sell a puffy liner with a two-way zipper that will zip into a shell.

North Face markets several zip-in jacket systems where the liner jacket is a synthetic ("Thermoball") puffy. I own one, which I'd rate as good-but-not-great.

I'm not sure good synthetic down-like material (aka thermoball) is commercially available for purchase.

IIRC the stuff that is available doesn't take compression well.

I would go with quilted climasheld, or primaloft if you want to go that route. I'm guessing this is what you mean by puffy? (I think most people think down when they see "puffy").

Brian L. wrote:I would go with quilted climasheld, or primaloft if you want to go that route.

+ 1 for Climashield Apex. You can buy it online and it comes in several different weights. It sounds like the down option isn't for you, which is fine of course.

Bearbreader has some thoughts on the longevity of synthetic puffy jackets which you'll find here on MP (spoiler alert, they don't cycle through compression well). As stuffing into a pack is a requirement of yours, I think that's another big plus of Apex as the UL backpacking crowd (myself included) hasn't run into an issue with their Apex quilts.

Another huge plus is that Apex comes in sheets, so you don't have to baffle or quilt it - fewer seams means less work, less weight and less heat leakage.

There are very very few Apex garments in the market (keep an eye out for new As Tucas gear though) but maybe that will change one day. If you have the skills, I would go with Apex over fleece over any other type of synthetic fill. Just my opinion.

the climashield apex is continuous long staple vs primaloft (gold/silver)/coreloft which is short staple or a blend of short/long

it should last decently longer ... its also fairly cheap if you shop around ...

i have a roll of it sitting right in front of me ready to be made into an overquilt

;)

By "puffy" I just meant not fleece or wool really, though I realize a lot of people immediately go to down. I know down is great for the weight and compressibility, but is terrible if it gets wet. I can deal with a little extra weight to not worry about moisture as much. And again, I want this to be an all around jacket.
Sadly I don't get to do too many backpacking trips, but when I do hikes that I want to bring layers for I would like to be able to bring a smaller bag. That fleece just eats up space quickly and is fairly firm.
I haven't made a quilt or anything quilted before, but I have been sewing for several years and could probably manage it. Though if quilting isn't necessary then that is a bonus.

So with the climashield apex, it will compress reasonably well and not break down too quickly? I was looking at that (though I didn't realize it as I hadn't paid that much attention to the name) or 3M thinsulate since those are the two insulations carried by outdoor wilderness fabrics. Any weight recommendations on the climashield? I'd be looking for it to be at least as warm as the polartec 300 fleece, tending more towards warmer if possible. Would the 4oz be suitable? Or should I go with the 6oz?

I did like my hammock with over and under quilts, it was super warm and I didn't need level ground. But alas, I'm now in CO and the places I've gone camping at have lacked suitable trees for hanging a hammock (I needed to make a new one anyway, while a bed sheet works it isn't the best ha).

The main problem with a synthetic puffy at sometime they will wear out. Fleeces however I pretty much only wear to the bar or around the house. Anything where I need "real" gear that is lightweight, packable and won't be a sopping mess I go with either synthetic or down (condition applicable).

I'd probably go with a softshell before a fleece as well.

To the OP....

Might want to look at thru-hiker.com/materials/in… "Kinsman Pullover" for ideas on insulated shells and materials.

-B

Here's a couple more material resources for you. Really well known in the DIY hammock gear community:

makeyourgear.com (owned by the same guy as dutchwaregear.com)
ripstopbytheroll.com
diygearsupply.com

And sometimes questoutfitters.com is the only place you can find something - but otherwise they're usually more expensive.

Brady3 wrote: Any weight recommendations on the climashield? I'd be looking for it to be at least as warm as the polartec 300 fleece, tending more towards warmer if possible. Would the 4oz be suitable? Or should I go with the 6oz?

Tim over at Enlightened Equipment makes quilts with Apex and his temperature ratings are pretty spot on:

2.1 Apex - 50 degrees F
4.0 Apex - 40 degrees
6.0 Apex - 30 degrees
8.0 Apex - 20 degrees

Of course these are for sleeping, so if you're awake and moving you'll need less insulation. I have an MLD balaclava in 4oz Apex, and it's crazy warm. MLD recommends that weight for 15-45 degrees sleeping and -10-25 hiking.

Thanks James, that's more what I was looking for. So I will not go with the 6oz. And thanks to the others for the other sites, they do have it cheaper than owfinc. I might even be able to make it for about the same price as the fleece despite the additional yardage. I'll probably go with 1.9oz ripstop nylon instead of the 1.1oz used in the "Kinsman Pullover," mostly just because it will be cheaper (about $2 a yard cheaper).

Even with using synthetic fill I'm sure the fill will last long enough if I make a point to not store it compressed. If it fails I could always remake it with fleece.

Brady3 wrote:Thanks James, that's more what I was looking for. So I will not go with the 6oz. And thanks to the others for the other sites, they do have it cheaper than owfinc. I might even be able to make it for about the same price as the fleece despite the additional yardage. I'll probably go with 1.9oz ripstop nylon instead of the 1.1oz used in the "Kinsman Pullover," mostly just because it will be cheaper (about $2 a yard cheaper). Even with using synthetic fill I'm sure the fill will last long enough if I make a point to not store it compressed. If it fails I could always remake it with fleece.

brady ...

to convert from oz/yd to g/m, multiply it by 33.9 ...

roughly

- a 2.1 oz yd fabric is roughly equivalent to thin synthetic 60 g/m poofayz like the nanopuff and atom lt .... which are also around the "warmth" of a 200 wt fleece + windshirt

- a 3.6 oz yd fablric is about the same as a mid range 100g/m poofay like the micropuff or atom SV .... probably warmer than a 300 wt fleece or around a ~2oz of 800+ fill down jacket ...

thicker ones will get to the "belay" and winter jacket weights ...

;)

I layer my Mammut light fleece with my Adidas down jacket. toasty warm down to twenty below.

in short, make both, or... line the puffy with fleece.

Vertical Addiction wrote:I layer my Mammut light fleece with my Adidas down jacket. toasty warm down to twenty below. in short, make both, or... line the puffy with fleece.

To this point are we talking lightweight microfleeces like a marmot dri-clime or a brushed fleece material? Or something like a light merlino wool style fleece or an R1?

Those definitely have a place in the quiver.

I do have a baselayer long sleeve shirt and a polartec 200 fleece pullover. So I do have layering options, but those two alone are commonly not enough. I don't do much snow travel so I have yet to need both fleeces on at the same time.

Brady3 wrote:I do have a baselayer long sleeve shirt and a polartec 200 fleece pullover. So I do have layering options, but those two alone are commonly not enough. I don't do much snow travel so I have yet to need both fleeces on at the same time.

I would check poly pro tops or something like an R1. I can't tell you the last time I wore a 200 weight fleece without a beer in hand.