Edging

So, in terms of things a climbing shoe can do for you, allowing you to stand on dime sized edges is probably the most important. How shoes manage to do this, however, and what exactly constitutes "edging" seem to be one of the most diverse and nebulous concepts in climbing gear design. This can make shopping/discussing shoes a complicated and frustrating enterprise, as review sites will list "edging" as a criteria and even create articles like "best edging shoes," which IMO is a completely ridiculous concept. The truth of the matter is that "edging" means a very different thing on slab than it does on a 45o overhang or horizontal roof problem, and thus necessitates different technical requirements in our footwear and footwork, so to speak. Even within a similar angle, however, the way that different shoes accomplish the task of allowing you to stand on something you really have no business standing on can vary wildly.

For example, in Sportiva's lineup, both the Miura VS and TC Pro are considered to be among the best edging shoes on the market, yet they couldn't be more different. Although both are relatively stiff shoes with XS Edge rubber, the similarities end there; the Miura is highly aggressive, with a downturned toe and last; the TC Pro is almost completely flat with a straight toe. This flat shape actually gives the TC Pro a strong advantage in low angle terrain, as you are able to turn your foot in or out to utilize the inside or outside edge, respectively. In this regard, the Miura is terrible; the downturned toe means that only a small portion of the inside edge can be used for edging, necessitating that you stand pretty much exclusively on the tips of your toes...but it does this VERY well, as the downturned last helps focus additional power onto that single point, and this becomes especially important in steep, overhanging terrain, where the TC Pro tends to skate off because the stiff, flat last struggles to "grab" overhanging edges. Which, then is the better "edging" shoe? As if to make matters worse, Sportiva then went on and created a "no edge" shoe that edges really well because it doesn't have an edge. Wait...what? To quote Neo: "whoa."

Looking at how different companies approach edging is also fascinating to me. Recently, it was announced that the 5.10 Anasazi Blancos would be returning, and there was a thread on MP raving about them (which I honestly still don't get, but I haven't tried the shoe). Fans of the Blanco claim that it was a one of a kind shoe that was the best edging shoe in the world for a particular type of technical granite climbing - further complicating the term. The Blanco and the Pink, also held up as an exceptional edging shoe (but for a different 5o of vertical terrain?), both use 5.10's Stealth C4 rubber, which by Sportiva standards is an odd choice, as it is significantly
less stiff (and more sticky) than their obvious choice for edging (that nobody seems to like), Onyx.

So, to sum up: to stand on a dime edge, you can have extremely stiff, flat shoes with stiff edges, aggressively downturned soft shoes, shoes with no edges, or flat shoes with sticky rubber. ...And...everything in between. Have we conflated "edging" to the point where it's a nebulous, near useless term, or does it still carry meaning and value to you? What does edging mean to you, and in your opinion, what are the best shoes for the job?

Stiffer shoe with better fit under your big toe will help, so depends on the fit to the particular person.

Personally I can't tolerate any downturn, it causes ripping pain in the tendon across the top of my big toe, so that entire issue is moot. And in terms of fit, while a tighter shoe can provide more edging power, at what tradeoff? If I have pain in my feet because the shoes are too tight, I can't channel the same kind of focused energy into good footwork.

More than anything to comes down to your technique. Particlar case in point, I climbed with a guy who tears it up in the 5.13 range... in tarantulaces.

Ted, I am looking forward to the replies as I am thinking of getting the TC Pros partly based on their edging capability. As an aside, anyone remember those completely stiff shoes of the 70s we called "Black Beauties"? Those and the blue Royal Robbins shoes were supposed to be great for edging on thin granite flakes, but were actually best for standing in aid rungs. So, maybe "edging" is indeed a very nebulous term.

Something many don't think about is the size of one's foot. A size 12 or 13 foot needs a lot more stiffness built in than a size 8 or 9 to have the same "relative" stiffness. The lever arm is simply much longer - it takes more foot strength in a longer shoe - some of which can be designed into a shoe. The weight of the climber also matters - the heavier climber will deform the rubber more - at some point this can be a limiting factor in what can be stood on.

To me, "edging" means (1) using a feature that is small but positive, so that the foot can support a lot of my weight, and (2) doing so with the edge of my shoe. If I use the very end of the shoe, I would call that "toeing".

In general, edging isn't done on slabs (use the bottom of the shoe to smear, or "smedge" if a small sharp feature is available to improve the smear). Or on steep overhangs, where toeing is usually better. Edging predominates on vertical face climbs, give or take.

Eh, depends on the slab. What you're describing sounds like pure friction slabs, I was more envisioning just sub vert edgy slabs. If you're climbing on slick metamorphic rock (my home crag is Quartzite), there is a fair amount of pure edging that still takes place.

Chris Rice wrote:Something many don't think about is the size of one's foot. A size 12 or 13 foot needs a lot more stiffness built in than a size 8 or 9 to have the same "relative" stiffness. The lever arm is simply much longer - it takes more foot strength in a longer shoe - some of which can be designed into a shoe. The weight of the climber also matters - the heavier climber will deform the rubber more - at some point this can be a limiting factor in what can be stood on.

That's actually a really good point. I've seen the weight issue brought up before (this is why Sportiva uses different rubber on their men's and women's versions of shoes), but you make an excellent point about length being an important factor as well. I remember being surprised at how soft the TC Pros felt after reading all of the reviews...for me (size 46), they actually smear very well, even on the aforementioned slick quartzite, but the toebox is still stiff enough to stand on tiny edges as long as your heel is tight enough.

Interesting comments about foot length, weight, shoe and rubber flexibility, and edging performance. Size 46 is the largest TC Pro size, I think--Ted, what is your street shoe size out of curiosity?

Thought there was a 47? Anyways, my street size is 13.

Ted Pinson wrote:Thought there was a 47? Anyways, my street size is 13.

I wish TC Pros came bigger than a 46 - another half size and I'd have a pair. It's the heel that kills me on the TC Pro - they kill my Achilles.

Yeah, 46 is about as big as I can get away with before things get sloppy...sized them for cracks and multipitch comfort (flat toes). If I crank down the laces, they still edge very well.

Thanks, Ted.

Daniel Joder wrote:Ted, I am looking forward to the replies as I am thinking of getting the TC Pros partly based on their edging capability. As an aside, anyone remember those completely stiff shoes of the 70s we called "Black Beauties"? Those and the blue Royal Robbins shoes were supposed to be great for edging on thin granite flakes, but were actually best for standing in aid rungs. So, maybe "edging" is indeed a very nebulous term.

Fabiano Black Beauties were my first dedicated rock shoes. Before that we climbed in our clunky Vasque backpacking boots. So STIFF was the name of the game. The BB's were very well made, totally insensitive, and I suppose one could ice climb in them if they were insulated. Sadly I bought mine too small and gave them away. A similar pair is on display in the old gear collection in our local climbing shop. (And my partner back then - mid/late 70s) climbed in the blue RR Yosemites. There's a pair of them on display also.

Once my friend bought a pair of EBs and pronounced them superior - he also climbed in Black Beauties - we all drank the koolaid and never looked back.

Being on the wrong side of 200lbs with size 12-13 feet, I only use the tip of the shoe in pockets. I use the inside and outside edges almost always.

I'm assuming that when talking about "dime sized edges" we're talking about the thickness of a dime. That's well and truly smedging territory to me. From a practical standpoint, if the edge is less than 3/16th of an inch wide, I'm probably going to have trouble edging on it. But that's with C4 rubber. The Onyx does seem to be a little better.

I'm 260.. maybe a little lighter now and I too find stiff shoes to be the best for me. I find they don't tire out my feet. I had a pair of Pinks but they didn't fit my heels well. i got another pair of TCs and they're working well. I did have to size up to 44 (running shoes are 46) to show mercy to my achilles heel. I don't find that the TC's lack of feel hurts my footwork in anyway.

If you can't get TCs in your size try Astromans. A friend who's 230 lbs loves them, although he's has tons of natural ability and an amazing lead head he did say the shoes helped.

Bill have you tried cutting the tension strip(rand?) that wraps around your heel? I sliced mine and it made a world of difference in how they fit.... After doing it, I now love my tc pros!
On another note:
I'm also a bigboy at #220... we need to start a bigger than the average climber meetup group... so we can belay each other :D

B, I have not cut the back of my shoes. I have two pairs now, new ones and old ones that have been resoled three times. Maybe I'll try your advice on my old ones and see what happens. My old TCs feel nothing like the new ones so don't know if it will make for a good test.

Hey, sounds good to me! I have one partner and my wife (yes she's caught me before) who I tie down using the rope that I trust. We could also tell each other stories about being dropped half way down a climb... on TR!

I gotta make good on that offer to come to Vegas one of these days.

Good edging for me, being 6'3" and 200lbs, usually means a fairly stiff sole, with a reinforced midsole. TC Pros are my favorite, but I have also found the Five Ten Anasazi Blancos to be great at edging too.

For anyone that is larger, or has a problem with most downturned shoes, you should check out the Five Ten Quantum. Slightly downturned, with a very stiff sole and a toe shape much more like La Sportiva than the usual Five Ten last. I got mine a little big, actually 1/2 size bigger than street shoe and they are awesome at edging and sticking to tiny nubs.