Plateau busting/Strength building question

So I am trying to build a good well-rounded foundation (see this thread) and I am going to ask this here mainly because I don't want to join a bodybuilding forum and ask them (even if most of them are right, it's just one more password to remember!)

I am trying to get all (Bench/some military press, squat, deadlift, pull-ups) of my lifts up to a threshold so I can be a versatile climber and "athlete" in general. Like many of you (I'd assume) my bench press is my weakest lift. I have been predicting a pretty early plateau and today I began it.

I've been going roughly twice a week, sometime 3 times a week to lift- I'm doing 3 sets of each lift, 4 reps each (Bench, Squat, Deadlift). Today I couldn't finish my reps on bench press without resting ( 3+1, 4 reps, 3+1). I'm not even pushing that much weight! (145 today, I weigh 175). I'm adding 5lbs each session and felt like this time would be hard and it was. Last week I did some military presses instead to try and focus more on the triceps because I'm getting stuck at the top of the lifts rather than the bottom.

So the overall question is how should I attack this? I am trying to stay low reps to generate more power and strength than building larger muscles and mass. I also only want to get my lifts up to Strong Swift Durable standards more or less, so for my bench specifically, I want to bench 1RM at 1.25x bodyweight. Is there any value in trying for some arm hypertrophy at this point? would the larger musculature help me lift more (improve 1RM max, not reps)? I think my cartilage, tendons, etc are up for the challenge as I have been climbing fairly consistently 2-3 times a week for nearly 1.5 years, but my tricep strength is just kinda pathetic!

Again, my main goal is to just get some more respectable numbers here and be a little more well-rounded, while improving climbing as well. I would like to lose weight, but I think I can afford to keep a little of it if I can trade the fat for muscle.

My recommendation would be to lower your weight and increase your reps/sets. The press takes more training volume to improve than DL and Squat. Consider upping to 5x5 or increasing to 3x a week. Also adding 5 lbs a week over the long haul is very optimistic. Consider dropping to your 7RM and doing sets of 5 then increasing that weight in a waving fashion once all sets are at the 7RM weight. So if 135 is your 7rm go 135,140,145,step back to 140,145,150. Now test your 7rm and repeat.

Good luck.

Luke R 84 wrote: I am trying to get all of my lifts up to a threshold so I can be a versatile climber and "athlete" in general...I am trying to stay low reps to generate more power and strength than building larger muscles and mass.

First of all, there's a big difference between being strong & being athletic (the latter typically has elements of coordination, agility, power, etc). I don't think what you are doing will necessarily generate "power" other than absolute strength gain usually increases absolute power. However, climbing power usually involves complex movements that require coordination between your limbs & torso: it's much more of a skill than how fast you can retract a small group of muscles. I would look into TRX exercises (or the stuff from Gimme Kraft) and use the lifts as more of a supplement.

Counter-point for context - do what you want with this, but ponder it. Your particular path and paradigm held my climbing back for years, but we each have to learn our own way.

How much do you think Jimmy Webb, Adam Ondra, Ashima Shiraishi bench press?

I certainly believe very strongly in agonist training for a variety of reasons, but your posts may me hearken back to the infamous John Long's "Workout from Hell" that I attempted to ascribe to when younger. I can guarantee you - it did not help.

Reboot-

I mention it in my linked thread, but I need to have strength/power for non-climbing reasons as well. I also hike some and am shooting to do some alpine style climbing at some point as well. I think my technique is actually one of my better strengths right now, and I'm noting most weaknesses in being able stay on the wall (from hard holds and/or from power endurance). I am trying to just build a good foundation so as to be versatile.

Paul-

I completely understand. right now I am willing to sacrifice some higher end climbing for a little more strength on the front end. Ideally, I'd like to be losing weight too, but it's hard enough asking for good all around strength and good climbing ability, much less all three!

Again, I plan on moving the focus back to climbing soon, but would like to push this strength issue a little further first.

As you may have inferred from my post - I completely get it. Can't tell you how many conversations I had with other climbing partners in a similar boat. Find that many people who were lifting prior to climbing have a hard time knocking off on the former, despite the positive effects it may have on the latter.

Best of luck, and I am sure it will work out. Luckily for most of us, we are not dependent on climbing to earn a living, and have the luxury of engaging in other sports and interests regardless of the effects on our climbing.

climbing friend,

are you thinking of the funny stuff?

do you believe some training resistance type on your non climbing muscles will really hurt your climbing, if you control your calorie intake and gain little or no size in the non climbing muscles?

would it not the resistance style training like rocky balboa on muscles nonclimbing allow you to maintain a greater half erection, more testosterone flowing, and feel better, more endorphins, in general?

or must you starve yourself with vegetable and water and cold beans in bowl and only work your pulling crushing muscles for the ultimate crushing grip strength to bodyweight ration?

Luke R 84 wrote: Last week I did some military presses instead to try and focus more on the triceps because I'm getting stuck at the top of the lifts rather than the bottom.

Though this works your triceps, this does not isolate them and is more of a shoulder workout. A better idea would be close grip bench press.

Luke R 84 wrote:So the overall question is how should I attack this? I am trying to stay low reps to generate more power and strength than building larger muscles and mass. I also only want to get my lifts up to Strong Swift Durable standards more or less, so for my bench specifically, I want to bench 1RM at 1.25x bodyweight. Is there any value in trying for some arm hypertrophy at this point? would the larger musculature help me lift more (improve 1RM max, not reps)? I think my cartilage, tendons, etc are up for the challenge as I have been climbing fairly consistently 2-3 times a week for nearly 1.5 years, but my tricep strength is just kinda pathetic!

Typical ways to increase your lifting:

1. Using a prioritization schedule of lifting can help (Rhea, & Alderman, 2004).
2. Research shows that daily undulating periodization elicits greater strength gains than the classic linear schedule (Rhea,
Ball, Phillips, & Burkett, 2002)
3. Frequent training adjustments facilitate strength and power adaptations (Rhea, Ball, Phillips, & Burkett, 2002).

So examples:
-Training intensities of 70,85, and 95% of lRM would be used on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, repeat.
-Doing negatives
-Vary your grip with your bench Press
-Vary your angle of your bench press
-Do dips with weights
etc. etc.

Doing these exercises to increase your bench press will likely not help your ability to climb btw. Also, be sure to do rotator cuff exercises, because typically these exercises like climbing lead to shoulder instabilities. Good luck!
-Joe

Rhea, M. R., & Alderman, B. L. (2004). A Meta-Analysis of Periodized versus Nonperiodized Strength and Power Training Programs. Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport, 75(4), 413-422. doi:10.1080/02701367.2004.10609174

Rhea, M. R., Ball, S. D., Phillips, W. T.,& Burkett, L. N. (2002).
A comparison oflinear and daily undulating periodized
programs with equated volume and intensity for strength.
Journal of Strength and ConditioningResearch, 16, 250-255.

Ok Luke, here is what works for me with some reflections on what you're doing. All you're exercises are compound movements which is great but you are now ready to add to them if you have "plateaued".
I split my routines into chest & triceps, back & biceps, legs & abs. Cardio. Repeat.
For the larger muscle groups I aim for around 16 sets of 10 to 12 reps. There are several different exercises for each muscle and I advocate inserting a new one every couple of weeks and dropping one out to cycle back in another time. This also depends upon what kit is in you're gym or available to you.
Chest and triceps. Dips 5 x 20 , bench 4 x 12, dumbell flys 4x 12, cable crossover 4 x 12. Tricep pushdowns cable 5x12, triceps extensions machine 4 x12.
You mentioned chest and triceps, but these are really not the muscle groups that would improve you're climbing. Back, biceps and core would be my climbing focus. For those you would need to do pull ups, Lat pull downs, cable and dumbell rows. Hit curls, with barbell, hammer, incline dumbells and preachers.
The lists are great but find what suits you, more strength, consume more protein. 1 gram per lb. Also I would add that use drop sets to maximize your muscle failure and up the reps. The endurance will be of greater value than explosive strength. I hope this helps and remember I'm a armchair expert !

start changing up your routine. doing the same routine won't give you the best results. you need to change things up to keep your muscles kind of guessing. lifting lighter and doing more reps will help with endurance, but you're not going to gain a whole lot of muscle that way. lifting heavier at your max with less reps will actually result in bigger muscles. since I climb 3 times a week I try and do all my training for climbing those 3 days. I then use my other days that I'm not climbing for things like lower body, core, and antagonist training (meaning, doing things opposite of what climbing does for you. so things like push-ups and bench press and more pushing exercises rather than pulling) but I know that changing up your routine often is key. your muscles kinda get used to what you're doing. so keeping them guessing is always good. and don't work the same muscle group 2 days in a row. one of the biggest things that has helped me is weight vest hangboard training. you need to be careful with injury doing this, but when done safely, it can have huge results. just doing pull-ups alone with a weight vest is super helpful. I'll use the weight vest to do some warming up or even top rope at the gym and then get on some bouldering stuff, and man..... you feel light as a feather! it's great. the one I use is 30lbs. I'm 150lbs

If you want to increase exactly the lifts you mentioned, Stronglifts 5x5, or Wendell 5/3/1, just dial back the assistance work if it's making you too tired to climb. They are really simple programs that will have a really consistent progression.

You can absolutely get stronger with hyper trophy training, high intensity will train your CNS more for heavy singles as well if that's your thing.

5/3/1 adds 5lbs a cycle to upper body training maxes and 10lbs to lowers, slow progress but add that up for 2 years of training and see where it takes you.

If you're interested, actually buy Wendler's book, don't rely on Internet summaries.

-Seb

Its hard to give you a single rep scheme, those need to be varied along with lifts and workouts, but heres my take on a bunch of exercises that can help you build some climbing strength.
You should focus on your legs. You don't build a house on a shitty foundation.
Deadlifts are the best lift to get strong, so long as your form is good.
but you need to remember to activate your hips occasionally, with Romanian deadlifts, pistol squats, and lunges (something that activates the external rotators of your legs). vary to an emom at %90 of you one rep max for 10-12 minutes including a warm up and cool down, to 5x5. 10x10's, or 5,3,1,3,2,3,5,5,5,5 with 2 mins between sets (use these for back/front squats too).
Find a mentor to work with you on cleans, (power & hang and sumo) once your legs foundation is solid and your form is perfect.

Sprints will get your legs strong and help you with your explosive power. HIGH INTENSITY, short recovery, full on sprints with varying workouts from 10-20 yard sprints up to 100-200 meters (flat ground, hills or stairs will get your calves and legs into explosion power building strength)
You can work your calves out at work.... single leg calve raises with a 1-2 or even 10 second pause at the top. alternate legs in sets of 5-10... do 5 sets 3 times during a day... with or without weight... these are great for balance and footwork when climbing.
I dont see any point in bench pressing, until you can do sets of 20 pushups with a 45 lb plate on your back. Push ups can and should be varied with hands out wide, hands in tight (elbows out @90 degrees, and elbows tight by the the side, forget those old-school diamond cutters). shoot to do 300 without weight, in one sitting and work up from there. dont have a plate? cool, get your climbing backpack and fill it with cans of soup or water bottles.
Forget the bar military press, use dumbbells (Arnolds are amazing, plus they activate the rest of the muscles in the rotator cuff, which are far more important than large deltoids (for climbing).
Triceps -Skull crushers and dips (weighted once you can do sets of 20), as well as the pushups with your elbows at your side, thumbs by your nipple when your chest is on the floor. Sphynxes (from forearms on the ground to hands on the ground in the pushup/plank position), and up-up down downs- (forearms on the ground, one hand at a time pushes you into the top of a pushup position, then back to forearms on the ground, alternate and repeat...)

You want to get stronger arms? and back? pull ups with and without weight use your backpack if necessary. get creative an do body weight rows (same ads the others, arms out wide, arms in close, reverse grip, throw a towel over the bar and hold the towel to do pull ups...) static holds and lock offs, typerwriters and head bangers (google them). Then do chin ups once your lats are smoked to finish off your biceps.
schema for all these can be, as easy as do 100 however you get to that number, however long it takes, in any rep format. you can also set a timer, and every 30 seconds do 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, and you start the next set when that timer hits 30, then you can work the reps back down to 1.

Toes to bars, front levers, windshield wipers for abs.
cycle in Tabata workouts (the science behind these is incredible), 20 seconds of high intensity motion, 10 seconds off, 20 on... for cycles of 4 or 8 minutes with abs, sit ups, raises, crunchy roaches, planks, mtn climbers etc... variety is key but chose a few that seem to work a specific area... (obliques, lower abs, transversus abdominus etc.) you can even get aps for this, or google them, once you get a good foundation of options you can create your own.

Good luck and have fun/ make sure you dont ever cheat your grip. use fat bars and 'open' grips when possible (dont fully wrap your thumb around whatever bar your using unless you need to).

hope this helps.