Questions about rain jackets alpine vs. ?

So I just used my old 1980's Patagonia rain jacket for the first time in a downpour. I've been packing that jacket on every big wall and alpine climb I've gone on for the last 10 years. So I was surprised when I finally used it last week and found out...gasp... It wasn't waterproof AT ALL, way past its prime. I got soaked. That thing has just been extra weight in my pack the whole time. Lol. Anyway, I'm in the process of buying a new one which leads me to my question. Obviously, when I'm doing an alpine route on Temple Crag, Incredible Hulk or wherever, I want the lightest jacket advailable. When I'm on a big wall and its in my haul bag, I don't care as much. If I'm stuck in a downpour I need it to be very very waterproof, water runs down the wall like a waterfall. I'm not sure I understand the nature of rain jackets, I know some are completely water proof while others are only kind of waterproof until they get saturated and then start bleeding through? What kind of jacket can I get that's extremely pack able, lightweight but still can handle an alpine storm that I get caught in on a wall?

If you're looking for something super light weight but still 100% waterproof for alpine, stuff, these are probably your best choices:

Black Diamond Mono Point - blackdiamondequipment.com/e…
Patagonia M10 - patagonia.com/us/product/me…
Arcteryx Alpha SL - arcteryx.com/product.aspx?l…;gender=mens&model=Alpha-SL-Jacket
Marmot Super Mica - marmot.com/products/details…

The one thing I would look for would be that it is 3-layer (not 2.5 layer). In a 3-layer jacket the waterproof membrane is protected on both the inside and outside of the jacket, so it's much more durable, especially if you're stuffing it in your pocket. Of all listed, I believe that the M10 is the only one that packs into its own pocket, which is helpful for clipping it to your harness if you're moving fast and light. As a general, Gore-Tex tends to be more waterproof than H2NO or MemBrain, but it is also less breathable. All three options are considered to be 100% waterproof.

the best place to ask and search for this is UKclimbing.com forums

if theres one things the brits know the best is their constant wind and rain "scottish conditions"

the general view there is that goretec pro > event > neoshell for sheer weather proofness and durabilty

one thing i will say is that get the jacket from a manufacturer with a GREAT warranty ... with goretex you also have an additional warranty through gore

as rain jacket failures and delamination is likely the most common failure point of outdoor gear for most folks

;)

on a side note ... youll notice many of the UK hill walkers blogs post REAL tent reviews ... "the tent got pushed a bit in 50 MPH winds but held just fine", "da daff thing leaked like a sieve in windblown rain", etc ... they actually test those things under conditions

as an example ... farnotfast.blogspot.ca/2016…

not like some fcukang blog "reviews" which set up the tent on clear nice summer days and pronounce it the best evah

=P

"Waterproof and breathable" is a load of BS in the true context of a rainstorm. As soon as the outer fabric is soaked through (which it will, no DWR coating will stand up indefinitely) the membrane won't breath for shit. You'll still be nice and clammy.

If it's just an emergency layer for bailing when you are going to rap and there isn't much exertion involved (ie you won't be sweating), maybe just look at a truly waterproof fabric that sacrifices a lot in the breathability department. The ultra light backpacking crowd might be a place to look for silnylon or cuben ($$$) options.

Yeah, that's what I was reading online. I won't be climbing in it, just bailing, waiting out a storm on a wall under a portaledge fly which might be leaking a bit, or going for a mandatory hike back to the car for about a 4 hour hike max if being chashed out by a storm, etc. So I guess that's what I'm looking for, a COMPLETLY waterproof jacket that's also very lightweight and very packable. So I guess most rainjackets are made so you can still hike/climb while it's raining so they make them breathable so you won't sweat and soak yourself from the inside? Huh. I guess I expected more alpine climbing designed jackets to be completely waterproof because climbers generally stop climbing as soon as it starts to rain. Weird.

I think you need to look at top of the line 3 layer gortex jackets. I like my marmot alpinist but would think there is something lighter

Waterproof/breathable should be fine for what you want to do. When the outer layer totally wets out, they are no longer breathable. However, they remain waterproof. So if your GoreTex shell gets totally wet from the outside, and you feel damp on the inside, that's your sweat not going anywhere. You would get the same thing from a fully-waterproof layer.

Any jacket that you get with GoreTex will also be covered by their guarantee, so even if you run out of the manufacturer warranty, if the jacket delaminates you can send it in to GoreTex and they will replace it for you.

Event or Die.

Big fan of this one, but might be a little heavy for you.

rab.equipment/us/shop/men/w…

The most breathable membrane, by far, is Polartec Neoshell.

The US Army's Natick lab proved this. It's 200% more breathable than Gore-tex, and somewhat more breathable than the new eVent, substantially more breathable than the old eVent.

Westcomb and Rab are building out of it; not sure who else.

Rab's lightest Neoshell jacket right now is approx 9 oz, I think--the Myriad. They also make a great jacket, the Flashpoint, that is crazy light (6 oz, if memory serves), packs down small, hood, the works. It doesn't breathe as well as Neo, but it's better than Gore.

I'd go NeoShell if I were you. It's slightly air permeable, which means you get a tiny bit of evaporative cooling while wearing it--it'll cut down on the inevitable clamminess of a hard shell.

Give the Myriad a look:

On sale right now a few places:

campsaver.com/myriad-jacket…

Great option (depending on your price range) is the Arcteryx Alpha FL. Packs down smaller than a Nalgene and is super light. There are definitely jackets that will hold up for cheaper though.

Depending on the condition of your old jacket, you could try to re-treat it with Nikwax or a similar DWR.

coppolillo wrote:The most breathable membrane, by far, is Polartec Neoshell. The US Army's Natick lab proved this. It's 200% more breathable than Gore-tex, and somewhat more breathable than the new eVent, substantially more breathable than the old eVent. Westcomb and Rab are building out of it; not sure who else. Rab's lightest Neoshell jacket right now is approx 9 oz, I think--the Myriad. They also make a great jacket, the Flashpoint, that is crazy light (6 oz, if memory serves), packs down small, hood, the works. It doesn't breathe as well as Neo, but it's better than Gore. I'd go NeoShell if I were you. It's slightly air permeable, which means you get a tiny bit of evaporative cooling while wearing it--it'll cut down on the inevitable clamminess of a hard shell. Give the Myriad a look: On sale right now a few places: campsaver.com/myriad-jacket…

Dude's not asking for the most breathable (see - not 100% waterproof)

Neoshell is awesome, but she ain't gonna shed a downpour on a bigwall like goretex or event, and Event seems to breathe a little better than goretex. My event tent rocks. I mean, "bivy".

All the WP/B get tested to the same standard for waterproofing, approx 20000mm of H20----consider that an absolute downpour in the outdoors produces less than 7000....

So, apologies, assumed most folks know that all waterproof hard shells, eVent, Gore, Neo, Entrant, H2No, etc, are plenty waterproof. The only differences are breathability.

So, back to Neo. It's as waterproof as eVent, Gore, anything else....but far more breathable. Google "backpackinglight" and Alan Dixon---he wrote up the Natick Lab tests.

Whatever you do, do NOT buy a Gore product. They simply do not breathe...until the interior environment (your sweaty body!) reaches nearly 100% RH.

eVent, maybe...

coppolillo wrote:All the WP/B get tested to the same standard for waterproofing, approx 20000mm of H20----consider that an absolute downpour in the outdoors produces less than 7000.... So, apologies, assumed most folks know that all waterproof hard shells, eVent, Gore, Neo, Entrant, H2No, etc, are plenty waterproof. The only differences are breathability. So, back to Neo. It's as waterproof as eVent, Gore, anything else....but far more breathable. Google "backpackinglight" and Alan Dixon---he wrote up the Natick Lab tests. Whatever you do, do NOT buy a Gore product. They simply do not breathe...until the interior environment (your sweaty body!) reaches nearly 100% RH. eVent, maybe...

Not sure where you're getting your stats, but everything I've googled thus far disagrees with you.

Here's one example. Neoshell not as "burl" braj.

10,000 mang

Polartec Neoshell is rated at 10,000 mm, which is the absolute minimum to be rated "waterproof".
GoreTex is 25,000-28,000 (depending on which version you have).

ukclimbing folks with neoshell issues ...

Has anyone else got clothing made of NeoShell and found it's worn out far quicker than they would expect? I've had my Rab Stretch Neo jacket for around 20 months, and have been very disappointed with its durability. The last time I used it in heavy rain for a full day was back in March, and it was leaking after about an hour while my legs (Gore Tex Performance Shell) stayed completely dry. The face fabric has gone all bobbly and in the past couple of months the waterproof membrane has started to crack and flake away around the hood and across the shoulders so water comes in immediately. My boyfriend has the same jacket and his has failed in exactly the same way after less time, although he is probably a bit rougher on his. I don't think I've put mine through anything a good waterproof wouldn't be able to cope with and I do look after my gear.

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Ive had the same jacket for just under two years. Have used in scotland, the lakes and himalayas. i'm also pretty disappointed with the durability as well. The bottom popper came off not soon after buying so I sent it back to Rab. I also mentioned the durability too them and the fact the fabric has 'bobbled', they just said to expect that with the weight of the jacket as its a compromise. I think the hood is a pretty naff design as well, does not stay in place when not wearing a helmet even sinched right down.

I do however notice the difference in breathability but don't think its designed for scottish winter climbing.

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I had problems with my Stretch Neo. Initially I was delighted with it- it was very breathable, more windproof (and not as chilly to wear as a pure softshell) but after half a season's use I came to the conclusion the build quality was dire.

The wear and tear to the cuffs and the velcro cuff fastenings was striking. The previous Rab jacket I'd had was in better condition after 4 seasons use.

I didn't test it in wet conditions (last season was so good!) so I can't comment on that.

I ended up sending it back and got refunded with no explanations or apology.

ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…

from nwhikers ...

II can only speak re my Neoshell -- well, actually, my third (original purchase + 2 warranty replacements) -- which is Westcomb Shift LT. I use it for ski touring and it's fine for that. It's also a fine hiking/backpacking/climbing shell -- until it delams -- so long as you don't expect it perform beyond its expectations. It's quite water resistant (until it delams) but I get soaked in an extended downpour. See Rumi's notes. On a 1 to 10 scale, where rubberized rain coat is 10 (actually waterproof), I'd give the Shift LT a 6 and my heavier GTX DH ski shell a 7 or 8. (Both are a 2 after they delam, which they eventually will.) The Neoshell does breathe better than GTX.

Waterproof. Breatheable. Pick one cuz you don't get both.

IME, the lightweight Neoshell used for my Shift is noticeably less windproof than my GTX downhill ski shell.

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My Westcomb Shift LT fabric is forming little bubbles in places. I say "bubbles" because I really hope it's not delamming, although it sure seems like it.

FTR, I have 15 or so days of relatively gentle use, kept it clean, washed it once in cold water with tech wash in a front loader on gentle setting and line dried it per care instructions. Kept it clean (packed it in a clean stuff sack), hung after each use, kept away from heat sources, no bushwhacking and carried nothing heavier than a day pack. (Bubbles are forming in several places, including at pack shoulder strap area.)

Very disappointed re what appears to be the precursor to a delam.

nwhikers.net/forums/viewtop…

event issues ...

I don't want to spark the age-old Gore vs. eVent debate, and I am aware of the current best practice for cleaning and proofing eVent. However, despite my best efforts at maintaining my Rab eVent jacket, its ability to keep water on the outside has nosedived.

'It's not rain, its sweat!' as you may be thinking. I'm sorry, a ten minute walk to the shops in the rain wearing a recently washed and proofed mountaineering jacket should not result in wet shoulders, neck and arms. The last few times I have been out on the hill, I have been wringing water out of my baselayers, whilst my friends in own-brand fabrics have been largely dry besides the usual creep up the sleeves etc.

My jacket is a 2008 model, and I'm just wondering if, after five years of moderate use, the membrane could simply be worn out? When I bought the jacket it seemed like eVent was a bit of a newcomer; anyone else finding that their eVent kit just isn't performing so well after a few years? I'm considering looking at new jackets now, or should I give it one last shot with a double-detergent, double-soap, triple-rinse, quadruple-proof and steam iron blow out? ;-)

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I'm having similar thoughts. I have a similar aged Montane eVent jacket and despite being washed and looked after, and not even being very heavily used, its waterproofing is getting less than impressive. I'm going to give a wee bit longer, but I think it's on the way out.

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I've found event wears out quicker than goretex. My event jacket was leaking and when you held it to the light you could see why! The lining also de-laminates faster, I returned the first rab jacket for de-laminating but the second lasted a fair bit longer. I think 5 years is about as long as I'd expect to get out of a waterproof if heavily used.

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I know at least six people who have owned eVent jackets, from various manufacturers, and for the jackets to leak after three years or less of use. This isn't day-to-day wear, just regular weekend wear in the hills. The jackets have not all been lightweight things: they've included things like a Montane Superfly XT.

I think that eVent is more breathable than Gore (marginally) but is nowhere near as durable as, say, ProShell. My last jacket was eVent, my current one is not. My leaking jacket was actually see-through in places - you could hold it to a strong light and you could see microtears in the membrane: not a good sign. I hope Gore know what they're doing with their latest generation of fabrics, as they are removing the breathability-limiting PU, but that's also what increases their durability, and is one of the crucial differences between it and eVent...

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I'd agree that the life of eVent, well certainly Rab eVent jackets is very short in my experince. I've an original Latok, which is a superb jacket but hasn't been anywhere near waterproof from about a year after purchase. Dad bought another Rab jacket and he has complained also after a year of wearing it to coffee shops and beach walks..............
I've tended to always wear mine in the cold/winter and so that lack of waterproofness hasn't been a huge issue...... or at least bearable

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My eVent has given up on being waterproof, I think I got it Xmas 2009. I've had my suspicions for a while that it's no longer that watertight, but hadnt had any torrential downpours to test it in. The weather obliged on NYE when I was moving a sheep fence and I ended up sodden. I don't think it's had all that heavy use, so got to say I'm a bit disappointed!



ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…

backpackinglight event failures ...

ILast night I was wearing a Westcomb Specter LT with 3L eVent. I've had a it for a few months and have hiked with it regularly, worn it BC skiing, etc. It's never been abused or washed, just worn with a backpack up to 35 lb.

After my walk in heavy, steady rain last night I took it off and noticed my shirt was damp/wet on each shoulder and around the back of my neck. There were wet patches over the front of my shoulders and down under my arms perfectly following the shoulder harness straps. My shirt showed wet patches at my hips where the hip belt touched the jacket. It was basically a near perfect map of the pack's contact with the jacket.

My first impression was it must be condensation. But condensation would have indistinct edges and more general distribution. This dampness was perfectly matched to the pack's contact and it had 'sharp' edges, like a spreading seep. The shoulder and hip wetness could make sense, but the fact that under my arms along my torso where the lower ends of the shoulder straps went past my ribs also had distinct patches of wetness even though the straps are only 3/4" wide and hardly push against the fabric seemed very odd to me.

------

I bought a Montane Air jacket about 2 years ago on sale and it has now delaminated. I contacted the retailer (who is also the Montane importer in Australia ) and was told that they would not replace the jacket as it was out of warranty because:

(a) Montane only provide a one year warranty; and
(b) eVent only has a one year warranty.

(Although, to be fair, they did offer to refund the (heavily discounted) purchase price.)

I was a bit surprised to hear that eVent only offers a one year warranty, given Gore's lifetime warranty on GoreTex but can't find any info on the eVent warranty on the web.



backpackinglight.com/forums…

Most disturbing of all, the Spektr failed utterly in the waterproofness department, and after a modest amount of use. I noticed some significant fabric fuzzing after my testing, but thought little of it when I sent it to Alaska for BPL writer, champion wilderness racer, and notorious gear killer Luc Mehl to use. He took it on a travese of the Aniakchak crater out near the Aleutians and got “pretty much soaked” by rain leaking in under the pack straps. I was shocked to hear this, as the test jacket had, by that point, fewer than 20 days in the field. I had even cleaned the jacket before sending it north to ensure the DWR was in good shape. The only conclusion I can draw is that fabric abrasion caused laminate failure, and that Montane has some work to do on the durability of this particular form of eVent.

The Spektr has a fantastic athletic fit and the breathability of eVent. Unfortunately, marginal construction and poor face fabric prevent me from recommending it to anyone.

backpackinglight.com/cgi-bi…

now im sure many folks use neoshell event fine, but the consensus seems to be its not as durable and realistically waterproof as goretex in the longer run, no matter what those "numbers" claim

not to mention gore has an additional warranty on top of the manufacturer and retailer one ... so if you were to buy an OR (best warranty in the business) gore (warranty) jacket from MEC (great warranty) ... theres no effing way your NOT covered unless a bear eats u and the jacket and then regurgitates it up ... even then OR might still cover it for you beneficiaries =P

though i must say i dont get too much condensation in my event bivvy

;)

Adam---that website is kookery. He claims that Gore "Pro" is more breathable than eVent, which has been demonstrated time and again not to be true. It's widely acknowledged within the industry that eVent surpassed Gore long ago (see the BackpackingLight article below). NeoShell surpassed eVent when it came out, in terms of breathability.

Maybe he's talking the older eVent, pre-DVS, or whatever they're calling it these days? Further: Mountain Hardwear's DryQ Elite is just eVent; MH purchases it from them and rebrands it. His numbers for DryQ are off the charts and too different from eVent for me to take them seriously. And his explanations of "waterproof ratings"--totally concocted. Surf around a bit more; I don't think his characterizations are accurate for differences in mm/forces/etc.

(Here's the intro to the BackpackingLight article citing Natick Labs independent numbers. It's from 2004 and they're already indicating that Gore is way behind eVent in terms of breathability and they've only fallen further behind. Subscription article, though, you can't get to the full thing unless you pay! backpackinglight.com/00316-2/)

The Rab guys explained to me that the Flashpoint (claimed 40,000g/m2/24hrs on your guy's site and the Rab site) isn't quite as breathable as NeoShell, but I'm not finding a good source for numbers on NeoShell at the moment (including the Polartec site, which is a chafe). Having worn both the Flashpoint and numerous NeoShell garments (Rab's, a blank made by Polartec, and Westcomb), I can tell you that Neo is more breathable than the Flashpoint.

I'll ask the Rab guys tomorrow if they have good beta on it. I'm too cracked to look further tonight.

As for waterproofing. eVent is listing two of its membranes at 10K hydrostatic/etc...20K for its heavier, "alpine" membrane. I just glanced at the Gore site; no current numbers provided, nor on the Polartec site. But...I've got an older article from UKClimbing...

From UKClimbing (author is a Leeds University professor): "There are lots of figures stated by companies, academics and bloggers, but there is no definitive answer as to what hydrostatic head is necessary to keep out all water in normal outdoor conditions. 10,000 mm will certainly be sufficient." ( ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…)

So, 10K is "certainly sufficient," says the university professor. Consider a hurricane with precip is approx 7Kmm, so as the Polartec guys say, beyond 10K is overkill. Sounds plausible to me.

Gavin--maybe you have a current source for those Gore numbers, or maybe a test in which someone explains why more than 10K waterproofing would be necessary?

I've done a fair bit of copywriting over the years for several brands in the industry, so therefore have had to read a bunch on eVent, other membranes, NeoShell, Gore. The 10-20K number for waterproofing seems about as high as anybody ever argues they need...never heard that Gore is 25-28.

Gore selectively uses tests that favor the appearance of its products (as well as leaning on companies to use only their membranes--ever notice how if a brand uses Gore, it ONLY uses Gore? They effectively leverage/pressure them. Kinda slimy.). Anyway, it simply doesn't breathe worth a damn and if Neo/eVent are as waterproof under normal enviro conditions outdoors--why bother with the exaggerated price tag and ridiculously low breathability scores?

So, sorry to hijack your thread, Jon---but buyer beware, the Gore thing is a hoax. They were first to market and still own the greatest market share....but folks I've spoken to and worked with within the industry all seem to acknowledge that Gore has fallen off the back in terms of breathability and isn't any more waterproof. Gore jackets are hot, clammy, and in my experience I end up soaked from sweat, rather than rain.

Good luck man, whatever you get! For what it's worth, I'm with Adam--a Rab jacket, in either eVent or Neo, is a great choice. Fit is great and mine have proven durable over the past few years wearing 'em.

for UNBIASED info on "breathability" ... these guys used to sell it all before the went out of business ...

youtube.com/watch?v=6TmzwZg…

breathability is one thing that is so hocus pocus in the clothing industry its hilarious

and heres why it wont matter after enough abrasive usage ... from a "national geographic aventurer of the year"

Why breathable fabrics fail
As a general comment, I think we expect too much of our gear. Every piece of gear has limitations, and nothing is a complete panacea for Nature’s challenges. Gear manufactures seem less willing to acknowledge this reality, either because it’s better for business to ignore them, or because they are oblivious to them (which is an understandable but sad result when non-users design, market and sell gear).

The breathability of fabrics seems more overstated than average. Every time I see a “Guaranteed to keep you dry” hang tag or read product copy for “waterproof” shoes, I dream about taking that company’s marketing department for a short trip in Alaska, the Pacific Northwest, or the Appalachians. If their experience is anything like mine have been, they might be more realistic about the performance of their products when they return.

Fabric breathability can halt or slow for three reasons:

1. Moisture may not move through the fabric fast enough. If this occurs, you will get wet from the inside via trapped perspiration. In dry environments, most “breathable” fabrics work well. In semi-humid environments, waterproof-breathable fabrics struggle. In very humid environments, nothing is going to keep you dry, sorry.

2. The “outside” humidity is too high. If the outside air is nearly saturated with water vapor already, there is simply no capacity for it to absorb additional vapor generated by you. When you perspire, it remains next-to-skin, unable to evaporate.

3. The fabric can “wet out,” or become saturated with water. When this occurs, usually due to the failure of a durable water repellant (DWR) finish, the outside humidity is essentially 100 percent. Moisture on the inside of the fabric cannot pass through these saturated spots. And, in fact, if humidity inside the jacket is less than 100 percent, then moisture can transmit into the jacket from these saturated spots, since it’s actually less humid inside than outside the fabric. This scenario explains why it’s important to regularly restore DWR finishes of rainwear, like by using ReviveX Synthetic Fabric Cleaner.

andrewskurka.com/2012/breat…

Why waterproof-breathable fabrics fail
In my experience, waterproof-breathable fabrics are neither waterproof nor breathable, especially during extended use and/or if the garment is not brand new. While there are measurable performance differences between the degrees of water-resistance and breathability of different fabrics, the ultimate outcome is the same: I will get wet from the outside, the inside, or both. It’s really just a question of timing and method.

Outside. The Achilles heel of WP/B fabrics is the durable water repellent (DWR) treatment applied to the face fabric. This long-chain (C8) fluorocarbon-based treatment easily degrades due to abrasion and contaminants (e.g. dirt, body oils, sunscreen), which causes the face fabric to become saturated with moisture. Since it is more humid outside the jacket than inside it, moisture is “pulled” through the jacket by the drier air inside. With new restrictions C8 soon taking effect, the lackluster performance of DWR will decline further.

The DWR finish can be restored with wash-in and spray-on treatments like Nikwax TX Direct Wash In. They definitely help, but I have found that the DWR is never as-good-as-new again. And without a functional DWR, wet-out is inevitable.



andrewskurka.com/2015/backp…

and the kicker? .... because of tree huggers DWR is no longer as effective as it used to be ... the c8 flurocarbons are now being banned, which means modern jackets have WORSE DWR ...

and once that DWR wears off a rain jacket its no longer "breathable"

;)

Bearbreeder has entered the fray, people!

Hey, from the Backpacking Light article I was referencing:

"Polyurethane only fabrics and bicomponent PTFE fabrics (i.e., those with a hydrophilic PU membrane like Gore-Tex) breathe better at higher humidity levels. In other words, they transport moisture better when it’s warm and moist inside your garment.
4. There is a new class of WP/B breathable fabrics with hydrophobic micro-porous membranes like eVENT, Propore and Entrant G2 XT that breathe better at all humidity levels than the best Gore-Tex fabrics. These new fabrics are extremely breathable even at low humidity levels, unlike Gore-Tex. They start venting before it gets warm and clammy inside your garment. According to some researchers, the enhanced breathability of these fabrics may increase your comfort over conventional Polyurethane and PU/PTFE fabrics like Gore- Tex.
5. Fabric air permeability plays a significant role in garment comfort at high exertion levels. Most WP/B fabrics are not air permeable and this contributes to them being too warm and clammy at moderate to high exertion levels. This includes newer fabrics like Propore and eVENT."

Note that NeoShell is air permeable...which makes it lame for sitting on a chairlift, but great for skinning and moving in.

And here's a lame screenshot of the Natick lab testing on breathability. Notice the numbers are way, way lower than any of the manufacturers' claims. Also, Gore doesn't really begin to breathe until your interior environment is beginning to approach 100% humidity...and the top line "Expanded PTFE" is older eVent. The newer versions and Neo perform better than that. Gore Active and Pro improved a bit, too, but not near as much as the competition....

coppolillo wrote:Bearbreeder has entered the fray, people! Hey, from the Backpacking Light article I was referencing: "Polyurethane only fabrics and bicomponent PTFE fabrics (i.e., those with a hydrophilic PU membrane like Gore-Tex) breathe better at higher humidity levels. In other words, they transport moisture better when it’s warm and moist inside your garment. 4. There is a new class of WP/B breathable fabrics with hydrophobic micro-porous membranes like eVENT, Propore and Entrant G2 XT that breathe better at all humidity levels than the best Gore-Tex fabrics. These new fabrics are extremely breathable even at low humidity levels, unlike Gore-Tex. They start venting before it gets warm and clammy inside your garment. According to some researchers, the enhanced breathability of these fabrics may increase your comfort over conventional Polyurethane and PU/PTFE fabrics like Gore- Tex. 5. Fabric air permeability plays a significant role in garment comfort at high exertion levels. Most WP/B fabrics are not air permeable and this contributes to them being too warm and clammy at moderate to high exertion levels. This includes newer fabrics like Propore and eVENT." Note that NeoShell is air permeable...which makes it lame for sitting on a chairlift, but great for skinning and moving in.

heres the newer gore pro (NOT proshell) tested for air permiability ...

youtube.com/watch?v=_PfR2dR…

any new gore pro jacket would be with the newer (2014+) fabric

if your going to reference BPL .... then note that when BPL tested the new fabrics a few years ago they found that a gore active shell jacket was the most breathable in real life, more than event and neoshell ... as measured by humidity sensors when hiking ... unfortunately the article is subscribers only

as to whether the OP needs breathability, which will wear off with enough use, anyways is up to him

;)

ah, i'd be curious to read that BPL piece on Gore Active...that is the lone and only time i've heard Gore referred to as more breathable than eVent or Neo....

got a link to the intro, at least?

(indeed, that is old data. the BPL article is 2004--ancient, really. since Neo came out everything has changed...)