Campus board training question

I just started formally campus training for the first time in my career. I already have a pretty decent base of strength, having climbed for over 20 years and can boulder V7/8 and sport 5.12+. I noticed that right now my max ladder ability is not significantly different between the different grip sizes. Whether I use large, medium, or small, I can do 1-3-5, but I can't do 1-3-5.5 even on the large rungs.

I assume this can mean a couple things: I either don't have the correct campus technique for longer throws yet, or my larger muscles (biceps, lats) are the limiting factor rather than my finger strength, or perhaps some combination of both.

Is this assumption correct? How would I go about progressing from here? Should I try to stay on the big rungs and work on increasing my max ladder distance or should I work on the small rungs? How applicable are big moves on the big campus rungs to actual outdoor climbing? I have an intuition that learning big campus technique is not necessarily super productive towards outdoor climbing and that it is the more injury prone type of exercise. Does this seem accurate?

I’m no campusing expert, but I did read Anderson’s book from back to back. My opinion is that unless you have a specific route you’re training for that requires really big throws from jug to jug, your time is better spent on the smallest rungs you can work on. Maybe warm up on the big rungs and try to work on your campusing technique, but spend majority of your time on the small rungs. If you’re stagnating on the max ladder, you can try other campus workouts such as double dynos, bump again, single max, offset doubles, etc. Be creative, but don’t get too caught up in campusing.

BTW I'm also having similar difficulty progressing on max ladder. When you try to increase the distance on the second throw, not only you have to pull down hard with your top hand, you also have to push down with your bottom hand. I feel that my bottom hand is very weak in this position, I’m not able to push down very hard, and it kind of hurts my wrist. I’ve been starting with my hands in an offset position (for example L1-R3) and working on this weakness.

I would guess that it is a combination of not perfect campusing technique and lack of power, while you seem to have an abundance of finger strength.

The important question for you is why to want to increase your max ladder. Do you think that power (not to be confused with strength) is a limiting factor for your climbing performance or do you want to get better at campusing for the sake of getting better at campusing?

If you are just interested in improving, my advice would to focus on that exercise. So therefore i would use the biggest rungs, that you can comfortably hold on. Doing it that way, you reduce your risk of injury and can train a higher volume, which should result in a bigger progress.

I'm definitely not interested in campusing just for campusing sake - unless it has a direct correlation to my climbing, I'm not interested.

I'm thinking that "power" can be separated into two areas: power from your big pulling muscles (biceps and lats) vs. power from your fingers (i.e. contact strength, different again from max strength of fingers). It seems like you can train both types of power on the campus board - bigger holds/bigger moves are for pulling muscle power while smaller holds are for your finger power. Do you think I'm correct in this regard? If so, I think I'm more interested in finger contact strength; I don't usually pull hard on big holds with only my hands on real rock, there are usually feet to help jump with.

Also, is it necessarily true that the bigger holds are less injurious? I heard that campus boarding leads to common injuries with the elbow and shoulders, and these would be more exacerbated with big moves (rather than small holds).

hifno wrote:It seems like you can train both types of power on the campus board - bigger holds/bigger moves are for pulling muscle power while smaller holds are for your finger power.

I think that's basically correct.
The basic limitation with using campusing to train arm-shoulder-pulling power or strength is that you're only pulling in one of the directions (straight up) out of many possible (including diagonal).
. (so a system board, or an appropriate set of bouldering problems, is better for training all-around useful arm-shoulder pulling power or strength).

Doing various things on campus small holds is good for contact finger strength
. (not sure why I'd be focusing mainly on laddering performance for that).

Another thing I've heard (from a very experienced system-board trainer) is that a campus board can be good for building "deep lock-off" strength -- pushing off a low hand, gaining range-of-motion by extending the fingertips lower, while making a long reach with the upper hand.
Recommended campusing drill for this is "bumps": Start with hands uneven, then keep bumping the upper hand up to another higher rung, and another, while keeping the lower hand fixed.

Ken

P.S. Injury? From the text and videos I've seen, quick summary is that climbers get injured the same ways when campusing as they do from pushing their limits 5.12 and 5.13 moves (except that campusing does not offer the opportunity to hurt your shoulder with a reverse-gaston move).

hifno wrote: I'm thinking that "power" can be separated into two areas: power from your big pulling muscles (biceps and lats) vs. power from your fingers (i.e. contact strength, different again from max strength of fingers). It seems like you can train both types of power on the campus board - bigger holds/bigger moves are for pulling muscle power while smaller holds are for your finger power. Do you think I'm correct in this regard?

I think the distinction between power from big pulling muscles vs power from finger is generally correct, though i am not sure sure how big the difference between max strength and contact strenght of fingers really is. The way i understand from a physiological point of view, contact strength is basically how fast you can recreate all your muscles and execute maximum, which in my opinion should correlate to a certain extent even if you only train one of those.

hifno wrote:Also, is it necessarily true that the bigger holds are less injurious? I heard that campus boarding leads to common injuries with the elbow and shoulders, and these would be more exacerbated with big moves (rather than small holds).

If you compare small moves on small holds with large moves on large holds, then yes, bigger holds are not necessary less injurious (of course this somewhat dependent on the climber). But big moves on small holds are def. more injurious than big moves on big holds.

Therefore i think there is some merit in training on big holds if you projects requiere big moves, even if they are on much smaller holds. Because in that you can focus on training on thing, power from big pulley muscles, which is definately needed to execute the moves on your project.

On the other hand, if your projects requiere short moves on really bad holds, then your time is probably better spent working on small rungs.

MalcolmX wrote:contact strength is basically how fast you can recreate all your muscles and execute maximum

I've never heard there is a recognized scientific definition of "contact strength".
That idea of maximal neural recruitment of rapid-contraction muscle fibers applies pretty well to the "launch" phase of a campus move.

But I think the "latch" or catch phase requires something more: an unconscious perceptual / motor reflex where each finger individually (and the fingers togeher) (and the wrist) learns to dynamically adjust its force and angle and timing to the specific configuration of this latch grasp.

specific like . . .
Sometimes there is an overshoot of reach past the new high hold, or sometimes a slight undershoot. Sometimes the arm is turned slightly so the outside fingers touch first, other times the inside fingers. Sometimes my pinky is fully on, sometimes mostly misses.

Sometimes just making the latch with an open grip and hanging and holding is sufficient. Other times I need to "roll up" immediately from open to crimp - (or maybe even latch already in a crimp configuration?)

Campus versus System board (again):
The big advantage of campusing over bouldering for this is that the campus board is repeatable and measurable.

The big disadvantage is that the campus board is too uniform, so your fingers are learning unconsiously a limited subset of "latch" grasping situations - (like working just on getting one boulder problem really wired).

The second disadvantage is that most public campus boards are not well designed for incremental progressive training. Because most managers of public gyms have not given a thought to "incremental progressive" -- they just install a campus board of a standard old-fashioned design because that avoids arguments, so then they can say they have a "campus board".

Again, a well-designed system board can address these shortcomings. (If only I had access to one designed for my current climbing level and style). Or maybe try "campusing" less difficult boulder problems.

Since I do have access to a large public campus board (and a small one at home) that does fit my current strength with progressive incremental ...
I accept its limitations on variety of reaches and grasps (and exploit its special value for "bump" training of "deep lock-off strength") -- and use it regularly.

Ken

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