Plated steel vs. Stainless steel?

Is there that big of difference between plated steel, and stainless steal bolts? Specifically when used for bolting in sandstone.
I am purchasing bolts for an upcoming trip to develop some routes in the Utah desert. I am planning on purchasing Rawl 1/2 X 3 3/4 5 piece bolts or Rawl 1/2 X 4 3/4 5 piece bolts. The stainless steel is $7 more than the plated steel. It would be significantly cheaper to purchase the plated steel.

PS is fine. If you put up a line that is fantastic then you can come back and rebolt with SS.

Get cobra bolts for 88cents each in 1/2 x 3.75. They are easy to remove and replace. I use powers in 304SS or wave bolts in 316 on routes worth the effort and expense. Wave bolts even with the cost of the glue (I have used powers, strong-tie, hilti) are very economical. The once piece design saves alot of money for full stainless. I often

The difference is someone is going to have to go back and redo your work 10-20 years from now, where as the SS will likely last 50 years in that environment depending on traffic. If you are inclined to use glue-ins and have someone who can show you the ropes, the cost is going to be significantly cheaper than the SS rawl bolts and will be better in terms of longevity and strength, especially in sandstone. You can order glue-ins from Germany for about the price of a carbon steel rawl bolt + hanger bolt-products.com/Protectio… Or if you prefer to go american and not pay as much in shipping, you can get the wave bolts for a couple dollars more per bolt rapbolting.com , of course you are also going to have the price of the epoxy.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:PS is fine... I use powers in 304SS or wave bolts in 316 on routes worth the effort and expense...

As if its okay to leave a manky, plated time-bomb when you're bolting a less than stellar line.

Bolt with stainless or don't bolt! Regardless of the climate, stainless is best practice. If you "can't afford" to bolt according to best practices, you can't afford to put up new routes.

Stephen Felker wrote: As if its okay to leave a manky, plated time-bomb when you're bolting a less than stellar line. Bolt with stainless or don't bolt! Regardless of the climate, stainless is best practice. If you "can't afford" to bolt according to best practices, you can't afford to put up new routes.

Plated steel is fine in the Utah desert and will probably last at least 50 years. Some us don't have the luxury of tons of money to spend on new routes, and an extra $7 per bolt can be the difference between creating a bolt protected run out trad route and a sport route. Both options are fine, but some people would prefer to create a sport route, and it is their freedom to paint the picture they want to paint with their route.

eli poss wrote: Plated steel is fine in the Utah desert and will probably last at least 50 years. Some us don't have the luxury of tons of money to spend on new routes, and an extra $7 per bolt can be the difference between creating a bolt protected run out trad route and a sport route. Both options are fine, but some people would prefer to create a sport route, and it is their freedom to paint the picture they want to paint with their route.

Again, if you can't afford to do it right, don't do it. Plated steel is bunk.

Stephen Felker wrote: Again, if you can't afford to do it right, don't do it. Plated steel is bunk.

Plated steel is fine in the deserts of Utah. The hole the bolt is in is going to wear out in most cases long before the bolt.

Stephen Felker wrote: Again, if you can't afford to do it right, don't do it. Plated steel is bunk.

Again, plated steel is fine in the utah desert, especially in .5" x 3.75" bolts. Get off your high horse

In soft desert sandstone it might make more logical sense to use SS on a low traffic route and PS on a extremely high traffic route for the reasons mentioned above, the hole is probably going to wear out faster than the bolt on a high traffic route. Also the likelihood of the low traffic route getting rebolted is going to be lower. In any event SS or Ti glue-in would be best practice for soft stone anywhere, high or low traffic. For the OP application if the choice were between 3/8" SS wedge bolts and 1/2" PS rawl bolts (about the same price) I would go with the 1/2" rawl for sure.

To the folks bashing plated...Feel free to send me some money via pay pal for bolts if you feel so strongly. It's alot of wor, and alot of money. If I climb something worth telling people about it gets redone. I rebolt other climbs with stainless too. I carry shit loads of chain and other goodies so you don't have to worry about tatt. When you are stepping onto your high horse off a hi-chair you should think twice about your credentials.

Put up or shut up

Flame on PS is fine. Someone like me will rebolt it 20yrs from now if its worth it. Most fa's are not. There are plenty of PS bolts that are 20 years old and good for another 20.

If you want somthing to rant about appropriate subjects are

Mixing PS AND SS

wedge bolts/studs in the dessert,

Lap links over quicklinks,

Star drives, compression bolts.

Things that are fine in dessert sandstone.

Drilled angles, bomber after 40 years

1/2 with 3/8 hangers

Just about any 1/2 expansion bolt. Redheads included

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote: If you want somthing to rant about appropriate subjects are Mixing PS AND SS

Mixing PS and SS. Do you mean putting a PS hanger on a SS bolt? or vise versa

^^^
Dont mix metals. When the bolt gets wet in the rain, corrosion begins to take effect.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:To the folks bashing plated...Feel free to send me some money via pay pal for bolts if you feel so strongly. It's alot of wor, and alot of money. If I climb something worth telling people about it gets redone. I rebolt other climbs with stainless too. I carry shit loads of chain and other goodies so you don't have to worry about tatt. When you are stepping onto your high horse off a hi-chair you should think twice about your credentials. Put up or shut up Flame on PS is fine. Someone like me will rebolt it 20yrs from now if its worth it. Most fa's are not. There are plenty of PS bolts that are 20 years old and good for another 20. If you want somthing to rant about appropriate subjects are Mixing PS AND SS wedge bolts/studs in the dessert, Lap links over quicklinks, Star drives, compression bolts. Things that are fine in dessert sandstone. Drilled angles, bomber after 40 years 1/2 with 3/8 hangers Just about any 1/2 expansion bolt. Redheads included

If it isn't worth telling people about, then don't bolt it. Simple as that. I bolt only using SS. And I bolt less routes that I probably could otherwise. I appreciate that you use good bolts on some of the lines, but most developers that use plated have NO intention of ever coming back to update their lines.
And I know it doesn't mean shit to most developers, but the new UIAA standards also state that only SS will be used on routes outside, including in desert areas.
If you're really worried about the hole eroding from use, then use glue in bolts. It's not that much more expensive, and will last much longer than anything else.

When it's 20 pitches long it's hard to tell if it's A3+ or 5.11. Hence why when you get there and then you find that it is indeed A3+. You do not want a hundred dollars in bolts on a garbage attempt at a route. no one wants to climb 5.11 A3+ on junk white rock. If you read my post Stainless hangers on plated bolts is the worst, all mixed metals are bad. People who don't put up routes are still chiming in. However, there is no one helping to pay for fancy SS for FAs. If you want to share the organization that will help, please do. If you don't like plated steel, give money to the ASCA. The routes will get fixed eventually. Otherwise stay indoors, the bolts outside are rusty.

But let's look at cost from my last order. these are bulk orders with a discount.
PS bolt Cobra .5x3.75 .88cents
PS HANGER FIXE 1.30 each
PS quicklinks 2.00 from camp rated to 40kn I splurged over the china linkS at the store

SS powers 7.90
SS hangers 3-4
SS quicklinks 6-8

The math is easy

Evan Deis wrote:You need to use stainless. There are some local climbing organizations that may help by making up the extra cost. Also; mixed metals are bad. Many don't realize that this extends to chain. If you're interested please read up on galvanic corrosion.

I've read up on galvanic corrosion quite a bit, I'm not convinced it has much affect in an environment like the desert, I'm using almost exclusively SS bolts now anyways so it's a moot point for me. Now let's talk about chain, a high quality galvanized chain is just fine for most areas, and as far as quicklinks go, they usually wear out before they rust too much around here, SS is really unnecessary. Let's remember that galvanic corrosion does not affect the SS bolt, it attacks the sacrificial anode, which is anything that's not SS, in this case the chain or quicklinks. Chain is easily changed out, where as the bolts are not. Of course for areas where stress crack corrosion are a concern you would want to be using 316SS or better or Ti for everything, this is not the case for many areas however.

Even, nobody is making you leave boulder and climb routes with plated steel. If you can get people a better deal than wholesale on SS then please, put it out there. People who put up routes are waiting.

I am aware of one or two instances where there is an actual, technical reason to consider plated steel. For example, I believe stainless steel 3/8th bolts are more susceptible to damage from over tightening.
But in reality, those kinds of reasons aren't really why people choose plated steel. They choose plated steel because it's cheaper and is often "good enough". Perhaps the desire for quantity of routes is overshadowing the need for quality. Its a strange position to take, given how much pride we have in our routes and how much work goes into them.

When we are installing life-safety equipment on public land, we should be using only the absolute best materials we have available. Often that means stainless steel.

"Some of us don't have the luxury of tons of money to spend on new routes, and an extra $7 per bolt can be the difference between creating a bolt protected run out trad route and a sport route."

Are you really willing to compromise your vision based on how fat your wallet is? If I see a potential FA that would make a good route, Im not going to turn it into something else just because I cant afford it. Im going to wait. And the claim that those people placing SS are simply "those with the luxury of a ton of money" is just wrong. I work on a shoestring budget and only place stainless. Ten bucks a bolt, proud of every one.

Evan Deis wrote:Dr. I agree with your logic. Rob. I don't agree with yours. The guy that will replace your shitty bolts is a volunteer and is giving up his climbing time to correct a bad situation that you knowingly created. Further. You're route, seldom traveled, won't be fixed. There are millions of aging bolts and few with the knowledge needed to replace them. Popular routes will be re equipped. PM me if you are interested in discounted ss equip.

I agree. I spent close to 100 hours last year just in replacing rusty bolts. I get it when it was put up before the knowledge about SS was widespread. But that's not the case anymore, and I'm getting really, really sick of people claiming "someone will go replace them" and using that as an excuse for not using stainless.

It's an absurd bandwagon you guys are jumping on.

Plated steel in the desert will last until the hole wears out. If the hole doesn't wear out, it would likely last hundreds of years.

The reason for the SS "guidelines" is that rules have to fit everywhere. There are exceptions that any competent bolter can easily see. Is this area wetter than everywhere else? What does this huge alkaline streak coming out of the rock mean? It's not that hard to figure out.

Timebombs sure have a funny meaning to you guys. It used to mean star-drive, or 1/4" bolts about 1 and half inches in, leeper hangars, yellow SMC, or an old bed frame. Give those things 30 years and you've still got a failure rate of about 1 in 3. Look at the equipment Rob is using, 1/2" bolts. Likely 5000-6000lb shear and tension strength.

Look at Indian Creek. Bolts are getting replaced out there due to tat, strange bolts, awkward setups, and shit wearing out. They definitely need replaced but I doubt corrosion is a factor. I'd venture a guess that none of the hardware removed from the creek had anything beyond surface corrosion. Maybe Luke Mehal can post up and confirm this.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:It's an absurd bandwagon you guys are jumping on. Plated steel in the desert will last until the hole wears out. If the hole doesn't wear out, it would likely last hundreds of years. The reason for the SS "guidelines" is that rules have to fit everywhere. There are exceptions that any competent bolter can easily see.

Yeah it is an absurd bandwagon, especially when talking about SW sandstone. Maybe if more people put their money where their mouth/keyboard is the ASCA or another bolting organization could offer a deal on SS.

Amen...

Like I said if you pay for it is will use it. If you want to sponsor bolting in a way that you see fit, be prepared to pay for it. The VRG has been rebooted with stainless steel very rapidly by Todd Perkins because someone paid him and paid for the hardware. Otherwise it was never going to happen. So back to my original post PS is fine, and put up or shut up.