Broken Cam thread

Sadly, MP won't let an OP delete posts so for now this thread lives on and on and on and on...

Interested to see what others have to say. I have 2 X4's that have yet to see a fall but this makes me a little weary of them.

Got pictures? I'm interested on seeing what happened.

I have a set and have taken falls on them and feel quite safe, But I to am interested in this subject. I have broken a yellow c3 that took the same damage as described to your x-4 but this is surprising to hear

The C4 and pre-C4 Jr's, specifically the .4/.5's used to have a problem. As the cam approached max camming (smallest profile) the wall of the cam lobe that makes contact becomes very thin. If You had it cammed tightly and lobbed on it, it could get fatally damaged. The lobe would get forced inward into the axle and even detent into that, so that the cam would freeze into place. I really levered one one aid climbing and that did it too. Again, this is when they are tightly cammed.
I never really called the unit's "broken" or "failed" because they held, but they were certainly no longer usable.
I have a feeling that's what happened to the one wedged under the roof at Howling At the Moon in Lumpy, but I couldn't pull it out to inspect it. But it was fused into place.

Not sure any of that matters, but I'm saying there is a difference between "used up" and "failed" and to me the difference is if it held me. Also that this is not completely a unique problem to that cam.

Tony B wrote:The C4 and pre-C4 Jr's, specifically the .4/.5's used to have a problem. As the cam approached max camming (smallest profile) the wall of the cam lobe that makes contact becomes very thin. If You had it cammed tightly and lobbed on it, it could get fatally damaged. The lobe would get forced inward into the axle and even detent into that, so that the cam would freeze into place. I really levered one one aid climbing and that did it too. Again, this is when they are tightly cammed.

Hey Tony,

This definitely lends some insight for sure. When I get some pictures up I think you'll see some of what you are saying. That being said, I wouldn't call the placement tight. I can't speak for the other two but the .3 I broke really was an ideal profile. Strange stuff. Again, thanks for the insight.

It might not be unique but it's definitely notable. I know of only a handful of people with X4s and I have witnessed two of them break before my eyes...

yeah i've had the exact same problem.

This happened to a friend of a friend of mine, so it's not my own first hand experiences. Trying to redpoint a route, he had earlier placed a 0.3 C4 but now chose an x-cam he thought was the same size, the 0.3. He fell (and broke a spine among other things), and the cam ripped. Apparently, the corresponding sizes of the cams are not quite the same, the 0.3 x-cam is a few millimeters smaller. From the pictures of the broken cam it looks as if the x-4 has inverted (it has no cam stop).

An X4 0.3 is noticeably smaller than a C4 0.3, so yeah. It's not a huge margin, but they aren't the same size.

The 0.4, 0.5, and 0.75 are essentially the same cam size as the C4 (with the narrower head width, of course). 0.3, nope.

If the size difference between the X4 and C4 made the difference then the cam would have ripped out not inverted. I've never heard of a cam inverting because the placement was two millimeters from ideal.

I just switched to X4's and love them so far, so this is an interesting subject.
Just as a counter-experience, I've whipped onto the .1 and .2 and they're both still in wonderful condition.
Hmm...

In this photo of the X4 .3 you'll notice that the rivet at the right end of the axle is bent. This was probably caused by the lobe forcing onto it, which most likely has damage to it as well making it stuck. The lobe with the broken trigger wire has a mark at the tip of the lobe. A tipped out lobe could invert and break a trigger wire once fallen on.

In this one the stuck lobe has a mark on the back of it suggesting it was backed up hard into a bottoming crack.


You mention that it wasn't a tight placement. The cam may have move enough that the 2mm difference made a difference. Plus the X4 is also narrower than the C4, so the lobes may not sit in the same place. Especially if the crack is irregular.
It's a testament to the cam that it held all your falls without ripping out.

Yeah, having a cam pushed against the back of a crack and not in the direction of pull will destroy just about any cam. Basically it leverages all of the force and if the lobes don't break, the axle will bend.

I also have two friends who have both broken their .2 X4's (one BD replaced, the other is pending), I think both broke after more than one fall on them and both ripped out when they broke. I get that most likely cam breakage is due to user error.

But there is something to be said that in all my years of climbing this is the first time I have seen cams break and fail during a fall and not due to age and wear and tear (trigger wires I'm looking at you). And the fact that it all seems to be happening to the same cams means something.

Just because you spent a lot of money on fancy new cams from the people that brought us the C4's does not mean they lack serious flaws. I will be paying attention to this story before I buy X4's.

You must know of aliens destroyed in falls (bent axles, etc).

To the OP, did you clean the .3? What was its final position? As others have said, it seems like one of the lobes must have ended up under (or not) cammed. Probably lucky it held.

Most cams get "jacked" because most folks I see making the transition from sport to trad are not extending their placements enough to allow the appropriate directional impact. 90% of my placements have a draw or sling attached to them. Certain cams, due to their build and length, might be more subject to damage if taking the fall any way but the direction in which they were placed...

but what I do see is almost every young person I climb with attaching almost every cam they place directly into a single rope. Rarely does their their rope on lead look straight up and down. You should gladly give up a meter's worth of extra fall in exchange for the cam to take the full force of the fall in the direction intended.

benkraft wrote:OP, did you clean the .3? What was its final position? As others have said, it seems like one of the lobes must have ended up under (or not) cammed. Probably lucky it held.

I checked the cam between each fall and it was fine until the last one (which relatively short, 6 feet?). One side had lobes in normal position but seized while the other were completely inverted. It was a horizontal placement which accounts for the denting on the armor. Clearly something strange happened to displace it but to have 3 lobes break still seems a bit much.

Dow Williams wrote:Most cams get "jacked" because most folks I see making the transition from sport to trad are not extending their placements enough to allow the appropriate directional impact. 90% of my placements have a draw or sling attached to them. Certain cams, due to their build and length, might be more subject to damage if taking the fall any way but the direction in which they were placed... but what I do see is almost every young person I climb with attaching almost every cam they place directly into a single rope. Rarely does their their rope on lead look straight up and down. You should gladly give up a meter's worth of extra fall in exchange for the cam to take the full force of the fall in the direction intended.

Neither of the cams pictured fit this description. Both were extended. We're not transitioning sport climbers, we are both AMGA SPI. Both placements were placed in the anticipated direction of fall. The climb it happened on is my work in progress and I've fallen on it 11 times with no issue. I know it's tough because it's the internet but you're going to have to trust me on this one. I guess I can't argue the placement was perfect but it wasn't for lack of extension or anticipating direction of forces.

saw someone at the creek this weekend take a fall on Puma near the top.

.2 x4 blew, .3 x4 blew and broke and then the biner on his #1 c4 must have gotten cross loaded and broke, then his .4 x4 finally held. afterwards his .2 still sort of worked, but the lobes were definitely misshapen afterwards

pictures attached.

delly84, that is most likely a nose-hooked failure. See blackdiamondequipment.com/e…
When gear blows, it can send shockwaves down the rope, which may have jostled the carabiner into a nose-hooked position.

As for the failure of the .2, the fact that it blew and didn't break implies poor rock, shallow placement, something of that sort. Perhaps it tracked out of the sandstone.

From the photo, it looks like that .3 umbrella'd, implying it was probably tipped out or the rock was crappy, allowing it to expand too much.

KrisFiore, the fact that two of the lobes were inverted means that there was room for them to invert, right? Doesn't that mean it could not have been a perfect placement? Can you describe the placement? Is there an irregularity or outward flare of any kind?

Mike Marmar wrote:delly84, that is most likely a nose-hooked failure.

I doubt that, especially on a #1 C4. It has a fat nylon sling. Kinda hard for it to hook a nose.
There are other more likely possibilities, like gate flutter. What I think is most likely is the biner got levered into the tight handcrack and the gate opened while it was being weighted.

That blue X4 was totally umbrella'd.

Good point. Levered into the crack seems like a real possibility too.