Definition Debate: What is 'Trad Climbing'?

The retro-bolt thread and the fixed gear thread got me thinking. It is obvious we do not agree on some basic definitions and ideas. The term trad (traditional) has been around for a while and seems to mean different things to people. So let's see how close we can get to consensus....

To get the ball rolling:
Is aid climbing trad? If so, what about sport climbs put up with hooks? It's a sport climb but it's trad?
What about trad routes that were developed top-down?

So....WHAT IS TRAD?

This has been covered ad nauseum.

Here is a great thread that gets to the meat of the matter and has input from a lot of well known and even some respected voices.

What is Trad????

" In the end, all you have to answer to is your own ego, pride, and integrity. If you lie about what you've done, or if you do everything in "poor style" everyone else will have forgotten those little details about what you've climbed long before you will. "


Ummmm not quite. When route development and FA's are involved, your statement doesn't quite hold water. People care!

Aid climbs are aid climbs... their own category. Climbs can be put up in whatever manner the FA chooses, but if they use trad/aid gear while bolting their route, that doesn't make it anything but a sport climb for the next people who go to climb it. Trad, in most people's eye's, is a ground up free accent without any previously placed gear. Obviously the lines blur a bit, when routes that are considered "trad" allow for clipping of old fixed gear or a bolt or two.

Trad is placing remove able pieces of gear and not using the gear to propell yourself along the route but only using rock itself. There may be some fixed gear on the trad route in sections where removeable pieces placement is not possible due to quality of rock or lack of placements , aka bolts , pins , slings and stuck cams or nuts. Those are to be used along with the existing stations only to clip in the lead rope or rap/belay off. Aide is not trad.
If only resting on gear but not pulling or stepping on it, is still considered a trad ascent.

Aid is as traditional as it comes.

Blommerz wrote:The retro-bolt thread and the fixed gear thread got me thinking. It is obvious we do not agree on some basic definitions and ideas. The term trad (traditional) has been around for a while and seems to mean different things to people. So let's see how close we can get to consensus.... To get the ball rolling: Is aid climbing trad? If so, what about sport climbs put up with hooks? It's a sport climb but it's trad? What about trad routes that were developed top-down? So....WHAT IS TRAD?

Trad: a route developed ground up on lead placing the minimum amount of fixed protection the FA deams necessary.

Sport: a route developed top down or ground up with aid where all protection is fixed with an emphasis on safety so that the climber can focus on the moves, not the protection or danger.

It's as easy as that.

csproul wrote:Aid is as traditional as it comes.

Then climbing shoes are aide.

kennoyce wrote: Trad: a route developed ground up on lead placing the minimum amount of fixed protection the FA deams necessary. Sport: a route developed top down or ground up with aid where all protection is fixed with an emphasis on safety so that the climber can focus on the moves, not the protection or danger. It's as easy as that.

Not.

You are clearly confusing sport with top ropes.

This thread is tantamount to race baiting in the climbing world.

This should clear it up:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SyIJ_c5dXSE%26rel=0%26hl=en_US%26feature=player_embedded%26version=3%22

Joan Lee wrote:You are clearly confusing sport with top ropes.

top roping is very sporty, but also near impossible to work the route once things get steep.

David Sahalie wrote:Trad climbing is not clipping bolts except for convenience anchor bolts with swaths of rotten tat... Cuz chains are bad.

A lot of communities are replacing pins on trad climb with stainless bolts instead of another pin that's just going to rot out.

There are also some bolted routes that I've climbed in J-Tree that did not feel very sporty to me.

We can also look at the South Dakota Needles. Most of those routes you're primarily fixed gear (bolts and pins). There's no fucking way those routes are sport climbs.

Trad and Sport are styles, not gear protection. Trad = ground up. Sport = working routes and pushing yourself to your physical limits.

Blommerz wrote:The retro-bolt thread and the fixed gear thread got me thinking. It is obvious we do not agree on some basic definitions and ideas. The term trad (traditional) has been around for a while and seems to mean different things to people. So let's see how close we can get to consensus.... To get the ball rolling: Is aid climbing trad? If so, what about sport climbs put up with hooks? It's a sport climb but it's trad? What about trad routes that were developed top-down? So....WHAT IS TRAD?

Here ya go:

lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+trad+…

kennoyce wrote: Trad: a route developed ground up on lead placing the minimum amount of fixed protection the FA deams necessary. Sport: a route developed top down or ground up with aid where all protection is fixed with an emphasis on safety so that the climber can focus on the moves, not the protection or danger. It's as easy as that.

No.

David Sahalie wrote:Lol... How many trad climbs are 'ground up' these days? Nice idea, but do you that think the routes in Squamish magically clean themselves of moss, dirt, plats? Oh, and there might be a cam placement checked out, maybe a few ticks,,,

Really? I've put up several new trad climbs, ground up, just this year. Not just moderates either.... Others have many more. Of course top-down trad is common today and I've done those too.
-AB

Top down trad. I like that. I put up a couple of - I hope - decent 2-3 pitch 5.10 lines in the Sandias, New Mexico and rapped down, cleaned off all the death blocks, scraped lichen and drilled rap anchors at the belays. I then TRed some of the harder slab sections and decided where to place bolts and where the good trad gear was. Then I led it ground up and ended up putting one more bolt in on lead.

For me it was more important to create a line that would be considered "safe" for the Sandias and something that my friends would be willing to hike in and climb. I think that George & Joanne Urioste set the standard for putting in lines that future moderate climbers appreciate.

"... rapped down, cleaned off all the death blocks, scraped lichen and drilled rap anchors at the belays. I then TRed some of the harder slab sections and decided where to place bolts and where the good trad gear was. Then I led it ground up.....

Rapping in makes it not ground up. What you should have said is that you "Then led it from the ground". I misused the term 'ground up' in the exact same way last year and was duly corrected. My turn.
;)

"Only bullfighting, mountain climbing and auto racing are sport".

E. Hemingway

Who cares? Does anybody on this site actually climb? I bet these guys were not sitting around discussing questions like this. Go out and do your own thing. Call it whatever you want.