Please critique my anchors

If you consider the static rope option... look for a short rope, Gear Express sells the ends of cut ropes, 80' runs around $60. While webbing works, it won't last nearly as long as a rope. Webbing carries the load with it's outer surface, exposing it to abrasion and cutting. Rope has a sheath to protect it's load bearing core.

gearexpress.com/climbing.ht…

Buffum,

I like webbing and will use it when I feel it is appropriate for the situation. I'm most assuredly not against it by any means.

That being said, I have never been to this climbing area and these are just my thoughts on what was presented by the OP.

If a frequently used climbing area has anchors that are needing to be made far from the edge of the climb I find it easier and more efficient to use a static rope.

In the OP's case I wanted to point out that he could simplify his inspection, build and tear down the anchor, and use no more than three pieces of gear to construct his top rope anchor (rope and two lockers at master point). Less gear = less weight.

How much space does that webbing take up in your backpack? Weight? Extra carabiners? Compared to one rope? Negligible for my tolerance, but maybe not someone else that packs lighter than I do.

Not trying to be an ass! I saw the smiley face. Just throwing out my findings and theories. I try to K.I.S.S. and what works for me may not work for someone else.

My solution would be as follows:

1- I would have used a short section of webbing tied with water knot. Double the sling around each tree individually and tied with an overhand knot to create a master point (this just to protect trees). Even more simple - just tie off the rope directly to the tree. I would use a bowline backed up with a double fisherman's. Your preference.

Or - Figure eight first end of rope to first tree sling master point with locker or tie tree with rope.

2- Walk to edge and drape bight of rope about 5-6 feet over edge.

3- Walk trailing end to other tree master point and tie off or connect with locker to master point.

4- Walk back to edge and create master point. I like the B.F.K. myself due to the ease of me being able to adjust exactly where my master point would be.

... but as bearbreeder would say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

Went with a friend today, and did pretty much the same setup, except we used bowlines to tie to trees, wrapping the webbing around a few times first, and tied the 3 anchors together using a figure 8 on a bite.... Will try the water knot another time.

The comment about webbing being preferred over static rope because of the weight difference and arduous approach is priceless.

I'ma go ahead and second the BFK idea, basically take it all and tie it into one "Big fuckin' overhand knot" to use as a master point. Webbing is great, but I'm also going to say it probably sucked to untie all of those knots. In that situation I would have used static, however everything looks pretty good. Probably more than what you needed if anything.

matvey,

I took some pictures for you over the weekend to reference on what I was trying to articulate in my previous post. See below.

As others have stated, you are probably not going to die with what you have shown here. You have redundancy built into your setup. You appear to be using gear that is in good shape, as far as I can tell from the photos. You have questions on possible abrasion issues. You come here for advice and guidance.

Means you are learning and trying to learn more.

Webbing tied w/ water knot double wrapped around tree to make sling w/ master point tied (simple overhand) to keep anchor direction and slightly shorten sling. NOTE: YES, use a locker for your anchors. This is just for demonstration.

Another way to do it. Probably the way I would have set it up in your situation due to the fact that your anchors needed to be higher up on the tree because of abrasion issues. It appears that the anchor arm would of had to raise up over a rock feature before going down to the cliff edge if the anchor was placed at the base of the tree. A girth hitched sling could help keep your anchor where you put it.



This is a single rope used to tie around tree for an anchor and then used to extend to a master point. NOTE: This is not a static rope (practice rope) and I did not bring my anchor arms to a close V as I should have. This was done just to show the versatility of a single rope when making an anchor.





Master point is BFK. You can see that with just one piece of gear I have made my anchor and extended my master point far beyond the tree.





This is not the end-all-be-all. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Keep this in mind!

I wanted to illustrate how I would simplify the situation and what gear I would use. Take it for what it is worth and use it to your benefit. Someone else here will most likely have an even better alternative than mine if not out right tell me I'm wrong. :)

Hey man, good job getting out and doing it safely...you're on your way.

Great resource just came out--Falcon Guides' "Single Pitch Manual"...it's basically a consumer/public version of the American Mountain Guides Association's single-pitch instructor manual. Shows a ton of rigging and anchor options--many of 'em mentioned here--for toproping/single pitch stuff. Check it out:

elevationoutdoors.com/blogs…

Good luck and have fun!

RC

That anchor looks bomber. I would stand there drinking beer while watching you factor 2 all day onto that thing. How did you enjoy Darcy's Wall?

Darcy's wall is awesome! We went on to try out Upper & Lower Diagonals nearby, sharing some nice people's ropes, but it was too humid & slippery and none of us got to the top.

BigFeet, thank you for the detailed explanations & pics, very helpful. I am wondering how the safety of a BFK compares to 3 separate loops, one from each anchor, connected with a pair of biners... I mean it looks REALLY solid, and equalizing the anchors is a lot quicker this way, but then it's just one loop, as in not redundant.

coppolillo, thanks for the link, I'll try to get this book.

kinda surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but I would hitch the trees as close to the ground as possible. I'm no physics guru but I've always been told the lower to the ground the less force on the tree... just nicer to the tree. Otherwise, good on ya for getting out and trying stuff! Super fun area to climb and if you're keen to learn more, there are plenty of groups/people in Madison that can show you all sorts of useful things.

matvey wrote:Darcy's wall is awesome! We went on to try out Upper & Lower Diagonals nearby, sharing some nice people's ropes, but it was too humid & slippery and none of us got to the top. BigFeet, thank you for the detailed explanations & pics, very helpful. I am wondering how the safety of a BFK compares to 3 separate loops, one from each anchor, connected with a pair of biners... I mean it looks REALLY solid, and equalizing the anchors is a lot quicker this way, but then it's just one loop, as in not redundant. coppolillo, thanks for the link, I'll try to get this book.

The BFK actually produces two loops at the master point and is redundant. It's worth noting that not all knots producing two terminal loops are truly redundant (the 2-loop eight for example), but the BFK is.

One significant advantage it has over multiple independent loops coming from each anchor arm is the elimination of potential tri-axial loading of the masterpoint carabiners. This doesn't appear to be an issue with your rigging, but picture a similar anchor in which the angle between the two outermost arms measured at the masterpoint is much larger, say approaching 90 degrees, which is certainly the upper limit of acceptable. In such a scenario rigged as you did in your pictures, the masterpoint carabiners would be significantly tri-axially loaded. This would be eliminated by using a BFK.

Bigfeet, the overhand knot in your top webbing photos serves no purpose and merely weakens the sling. It's not redundant (cut the webbing at any point and it's outa there) nor does it equalize anything. There are ways to make a SRENE attachment to a tree with just a big piece of webbing like that, but you're not doing it.

BigFeet wrote:matvey, I took some pictures for you over the weekend to reference on what I was trying to articulate in my previous post.

BigFeet's choices are definitely more conventional, just a couple of points about the webbing anchors. In the first picture, the overhand knot adds nothing to the anchor, it just weakens the webbing (not that you're going to generate webbing breaking forces with your toprope but, hey, principles ok?) and adds an unnecessary step. In the second webbing picture, girth hitches are generally best to be avoided. They add mechanical advantage to your anchor plus webbing on webbing friction on a system that is going to be weighted/unweighted numerous times (and the knot is redundant). It's just as easy to tie these anchors without those points as with them and the concepts will serve you better as you progress in your outdoor adventures.

Matvey,

It doesn't have to be a BFK. I like it in this situation because I can adjust exactly where my master point will be by the nature of how the BFK is tied. A figure eight or even a simple overhand will suffice.

Having a master point in the system allows for all arms of the anchor to be independent and have a central point of connection so that all arms take an, as equal as possible, distribution of force/load while limiting extension and/or swing.

It is simple to inspect, re-rig if need be, redundant, limits extension, and simplifies the setup.

Can you assure that each arm of your anchor is helping distribute force/load when the system is loaded or will it be the arm that will be pulled most tight from the direction of pull?

You probably won't die climbing on your setup with webbing rated as it is and you top rope climbing where forces are substantially lower than a lead fall would generate - but what if?

Having a master point knot helps distribute the load/force through the knot sending load/force to all anchor arms. Ideally, equally to all arms, but this is most likely almost impossible to achieve.

Anybody else want to add to this? I'm sure there are things not mentioned. I'm always learning too, and correct me if you see something wrong.

angieL,

I believe the reason the anchors were tied high on the tree was to limit abrasion issues.

It appears that if the anchor was tied at the base of the tree it would have taken a sharp upward angle over the rock feature that is in close proximity to the tree where the anchor is tied before veering down to the cliff edge.

I may be wrong, but the OP can give us his reasoning for doing such.

Gunkiemike & Greg DeMatteo,

Please show me your method. I can always add to my tool box!

I agree in your observation of the overhand on my webbing. It does not assist in anyway to strengthen the sling and does in fact weaken it. It also creates an extra step.

With that in mind, the reason for the overhand is due to an incident that I witnessed.

A long arm of an anchor was attached to a sling around a rock feature. The anchor arm was tripped over which caused the locker to shift to the far side of the sling and become trapped by the rock feature and sling with the gate against the sling and rock. Rope was not under weight at the time. When the system was put under load by the belayer pulling in slack for his partner to start climbing, the whole arm shifted and came back to center. No one hurt. I don't even think the party was aware of what happened. All gear looked good to go. I believe it was a person in the group trying to get a picture of his friend as the friend started to climb.

I use the overhand to try and avoid this happening. It will keep my locker from sliding to such a point I believe. Never heard about/seen this before, but it happened and I was trying to mitigate the problem.

My risk tolerance for certain things and not others will be different than someone else's. I figure that with top rope climbing I could live with the overhand.

Any other suggestions welcome.

BigFeet--

You're absolutely right in that if it was tied at the base of the tree it would have to go up and over an edge, that would be silly! However, from the picture, it looks as though the webbing is fairly high above the platform of rock where the anchor is being constructed. I personally would make it a bit more flush with the rock... nothing huge, just thought I'd point it out in case the OP didn't know about it already :)

BigFeet wrote: With that in mind, the reason for the overhand is due to an incident that I witnessed. A long arm of an anchor was attached to a sling around a rock feature. The anchor arm was tripped over which caused the locker to shift to the far side of the sling and become trapped by the rock feature and sling with the gate against the sling and rock.

If you have a good reason to be using it then definitely use it. Preventing the shift of direction of force on your anchor or whatever else is a perfectly good reason. I just wanted to point out that the overhand was unnecessary in and of itself.