Can I mechanically cheat the Tyrolean traverse?

The rain chased us off of Cascade Crag today, and the ropes on the Tyrolean traverse were wet when we got there. I'm already pretty horrible at pulling the traverse (weak abs, poor lean-mass-to-weight-ratio, sucky technique, etc. ad nauseum) but imagine my horror when my biner wouldn't slide nicely the way it did when the ropes were dry. It was not pretty, my friends.

I resorted to a two hand pull while thrusting my hips upward to unweight the biner--which responded by moving MAYBE AN INCH each time. I looked like a fish flopping around in mid-air. And my forearms were worked by the time I landed.

Would a biner with a built-in pulley (like the DMM revolver) help in these situations? I mean, until I get stronger and leaner and better-techniquier?

A DMM Revolver probably would help a bit. Or a full-strength pulley of any sort. Petzl makes a little device that can be added to just about any 'biner that's super light and inexpensive:

Petzl Ultralegere Pulley

The only issue with using a pulley is that it will be harder to maintain your progress the further past the center of the Tyrol that you go.

You could also consider bring a Jumar/Tibloc/Traxion-type device with a daisy chain. With that technique you wouldn't have to worry losing any ground you've gained. I would only use it when absolutely necessary though because it will put extra wear and tear on the rope.

I think using a pulley and jug (with daisy) would be the most efficient technique.

a toothed device on a tensioned line is a really bad idea. a bachman and a pulley

Yes, but at least you didn't have to be rescued by Boulder County Fire w/ a ladder truck. (Actual event from a couple years back)

Another option is to use a tag line and have your partner give you a little pulling assistance.

I think you should not cheat the tyrol because by forcing yourself to do it at the beginning and end of the day you will be training it and also helping yourself get leaner and stronger.

The best way to get good at something is just to do it (if possible).

Toothed device on a tensioned line is called jugging, not a really bad idea. The actual bite of a toothed progress capture device is much less on a Tyrol than a vertical jug. Of course the teeth should be left open on the downhill side of the traverse.

tim wrote:Toothed device on a tensioned line is called jugging, not a really bad idea. The actual bite of a toothed progress capture device is much less on a Tyrol than a vertical jug. Of course the teeth should be left open on the downhill side of the traverse.

For what it's worth, the tension in the line during a tyrol is MUCH higher than that in a vertically-oriented line...

Not sure if it matters; just thought I'd make that distinction.

Dara - clip your bag to the line and then clip yourself to the carabiner connecting your bag to the line. This will take the weight off your back, and give you extra power to pull across.

You may already be doing some or all of this, but some technique can help.

As I drive up and down the canyon I watch a lot of people cross the tyrols. I see a lot of people clipped in pretty long (quickdraw, or occasionally a full shoulder length sling), and wearing their pack on their back. If you're strong enough, this method is okay because it's fast and easy to get on and off. But it wastes a lot of energy.

As someone above said, take your pack off and hang it on the rope. Getting it off your back means your arms and abs do WAY less work as you cross the tyrol. However, don't clip yourself into the same biner as the pack (as mentioned above). Clip into the rope with a separate biner. This spreads your weight out on the rope, and reduces friction at the biner. If you put the pack on the rope behind you, you can wrap your legs around it. This puts the weight from your legs into the biner that the pack is hanging from.

Clip in as short as possible. The closer your hips are to the tyrol, the more of your pull force goes into sending you ACROSS the tyrol instead of just pulling your hips back up towards the rope. Depending on the tyrol, I usually just have a locker on my belay loop, clipped directly to the tyrol rope. This is difficult on some tyrols because the rope is high (like the south side of the Cascade tyrol). In those cases, you can have a long sling girth hitched to your harness in addition to the locker on your belay loop. Clip into the rope with the long sling first, so you are connected to something to keep you safe while you monkey up the tree (or up onto the tyrol rope) to clip in shorter.

The pulley idea is okay, but it works both ways. You get less friction as you pull up the uphill side. But without a progress capture of some sort, if you let go, you will just roll back down to the middle.

Adding progress capture gets more complicated or expensive (mini-traxion, etc.), so try the techniques above first. If those don't solve your problem, then add the more complex solutions.

Rich Farnham wrote: The pulley idea is okay, but it works both ways. You get less friction as you pull up the uphill side. But without a progress capture of some sort, if you let go, you will just roll back down to the middle.

Also, a pulley is only clipped to one strand of the tyrol so the sag is even worse.

When we did a mass ascent (4 people) of the Lost Arrow Spire followed by a Tyrolean back to the Valley rim back in the '90s we each used 2 ascenders and a pulley. As I recall we had the second ascender rigged so that the climber was using his/her leg muscles to make progress, instead of hauling himself across with upper body strength alone. Two jugs and a pulley is a little much for a creek crossing, but a Tibloc or two combined with the Petzl Ultralegere (or similar) might make life easier. I also recall experimenting with attaching the jugs and pulley to the rope in different orders; IIRC we found that putting the pulley above the jugs was more efficient on rising traverses. Playing with the length of the daisy chain from the lead jumar to the climber's harness helped, too.

Thanks for the input, folks. Does it make for easier pulling to clip into both strands of the tyrol? Seems that would reduce sag but maybe increase drag?
Also, I will always haul my pack on a separate draw from now on....on the return trip I had my pack on my back, and that seemed like a mistake.

Ryan Nevius wrote: For what it's worth, the tension in the line during a tyrol is MUCH higher than that in a vertically-oriented line... Not sure if it matters; just thought I'd make that distinction.

It doesn't matter. Climbers have been using Jumars on diagonally and horizontally tensioned lines for decades since most big walls have some combination. The tyro from the Lost Arrow back to the rim is 70% diagonal/almost horizontal jugging and would be impossible without ascenders.

I've never actually had to cross a tyrol yet, but would a prusik work well enough in place of an ascender?

Ian, I imagine a prusik would help if the line sags in the middle. It's tough going "uphill" and the prusik would keep you from sliding back towards the middle. And possibly easier to rig than an ascender?

Dara wrote:Thanks for the input, folks. Does it make for easier pulling to clip into both strands of the tyrol? Seems that would reduce sag but maybe increase drag? Also, I will always haul my pack on a separate draw from now on....on the return trip I had my pack on my back, and that seemed like a mistake.

Double rope redundancy on a tyrol is a good thing for your safety.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:a toothed device on a tensioned line is a really bad idea. a bachman and a pulley

tim wrote:Toothed device on a tensioned line is called jugging, not a really bad idea. The actual bite of a toothed progress capture device is much less on a Tyrol than a vertical jug. Of course the teeth should be left open on the downhill side of the traverse.

On walls, the third in a party of three uses the haul line to jug with a pig dangling on the regular. Anyone who's ever cleaned a single pitch of aid has set her upper jug on a tensioned line. And the OP is talking about a tyrol.. You mostly TR in Zion, Rob? ;-)
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Ryan Nevius wrote: For what it's worth, the tension in the line during a tyrol is MUCH higher than that in a vertically-oriented line.

You're thinking of the anchors. On a tyrol, each anchor supports 200% of the the static/dynamic weight/force bearing down on the rope spanning them. The rope itself doesn't support anymore than the dynamic force put into it.

"You mostly TR in Zion, Rob? ;-) "

you are right Marc, you caught me... I only TR, I actually only boulder with my shirt off,with a go pro on my dick, I actually don't climb.. you actually caught me being a some kind of poser on the internet. In my experience a tyrol is tensioned with a mechanical advantage system which is released after the last party crosses. I don't jug lines with the pig on them, why would I when there is another line available. I also don't climb in 3's so you might have me there. people have died on sheathed ropes in Zion using the system you describe... so maybe I misspoke on the tyrol, shoot me.

But what do I know I only TR

FLAME ON and YER GONNA DIE