Help me crimp!

Anyone knows about some reading to do on improving crimping? I always use crimps with an open hand. Never learned to really crimp. Felt awkward. Been focused too much on crack climbing and training with not too much purpose, till about 6 months ago. And feel like being on a larger side (6’2) with large fingers I have a lot more trouble holding on to small holds vs my smaller friends, who are not as strong as me on other types of routes, just the thin crimpy ones. So obviously it is my weakness and I need some tips!
Personally I am planning to climb more crimpy routes/boulder problems in the gym and practice crimping. Also will use hangboard to improve finger strength and after 6 weeks will do 6 weeks of campus (I have done a cycle of hangboard and several weeks of campusing but now giving my elbow some rest because it was getting inflamed). So about two more weeks of mostly light bouldering/power endurance and a week long trip to Red Rock. Should give elbow some rest.
Any tips welcome!

Hangboarding in a full crimp position would probably help but be careful. I've been doing hangboard repeaters on open, half crimp, and full crimp position to remedy a similar issue and I feel a noticeable difference.

I wouldn't expect the campus board cycle to help your full crimp strength since full crimping while campusing is an extremely bad idea.

i think you would be better off using your hangboard with added weight, instead of crimping on a campus board(a real easy way to jack your fingers up).

I read either in one of Eric Horst or Udo Neumann's training books that you cannot gain crimping strength by crimping, only by open handing holds. I have climbed in this style for 15 plus years and people constantly ask me how i am so strong open handed and why do i never need to crimp? I climb in the same gym as legendary strong climber Steve Hong and I cannot remember ever seeing him crimp a hold. He climbs incredibly statically and open handed. I have observed a huge amount of climbers who crimp relentlessly and have nearly every finger taped at both joints and endure pulley and other finger injuries. Food for thought...

ShireSmitty wrote: I read either in one of Eric Horst or Udo Neumann's training books that you cannot gain crimping strength by crimping, only by open handing holds. I have climbed in this style for 15 plus years and people constantly ask me how i am so strong open handed and why do i never need to crimp? I climb in the same gym as legendary strong climber Steve Hong and I cannot remember ever seeing him crimp a hold. He climbs incredibly statically and open handed. I have observed a huge amount of climbers who crimp relentlessly and have nearly every finger taped at both joints and endure pulley and other finger injuries. Food for thought...

I have read a lot of the same literature...and after a couple pulley injuries, the open hand and half crimp is all i use.

Interesting, so you guys are saying it is possible to be strong on small edges without crimping but with getting stronger using the hold that feels good?
It just seems like a HUGE problem for me. There was a verticel edy climb 11b at the gym that I was flailing like a rag doll on. COuldn't even pull thru one of the moves. Than my friend did it fairly fast without falls. Prior to that I onsighted a 5.12a which my friend fell on multiple times. Than on the other day I couldn't do a v3 that had similar style of climbing. I usually do all v3s, some v4s and a very rare v5. But crap, these little crimps are a big problem! Maybe my body position is off or something too. Damnit!

My anecdotal experience when coming back from a mild tendon strain(and there is much more discussed on this in the archives if you read your way backward through the training forum)is that training open-handed isn't the best way to train full crimps. Training crimps is the best way to train for crimps. I'm 6'3" and just under 190, and I've found that I'm best off treading carefully on the full crimps when training, but I still think that training that position has been the most effective way to get my body used to that very specific type of stress.

You also don't want to be inflaming your joints as part of getting stronger. No doubt the rest you mention will be a good thing, but it might also be beneficial to closely examine your regimen so you don't repeat a process that is putting your joints and connective tissue through too much too quickly. It's great to be excited about self-improvement, but easy to let the quality/quantity scale tip towards quantity in that mindset. It was helpful for me to start thinking of training as being as much about injury prevention as improving fitness.

Place your thumb over the first part of your index finger and PULL !

ShireSmitty wrote: I read either in one of Eric Horst or Udo Neumann's training books that you cannot gain crimping strength by crimping, only by open handing holds. I have climbed in this style for 15 plus years and people constantly ask me how i am so strong open handed and why do i never need to crimp? I climb in the same gym as legendary strong climber Steve Hong and I cannot remember ever seeing him crimp a hold. He climbs incredibly statically and open handed. I have observed a huge amount of climbers who crimp relentlessly and have nearly every finger taped at both joints and endure pulley and other finger injuries. Food for thought...

i also climb in the same gym as steve, and he generally climbs steep routes with nasty pinches and holds that are generally better open handed in the first place. i have seen him crimp on small holds when necessary. it completely depends on the type of route you are climbing.

also, i think you mis-quoted (what is already a debateable quote in the first place...). some folks say you can gain crimp strength by training open handed, but you can't develop open handed by only crimping. honestly, if you want to get stronger at either grip position you have to train that grip position. its pretty simple.

ShireSmitty wrote: I have climbed in this style for 15 plus years and people constantly ask me how i am so strong open handed and why do i never need to crimp?

My experience is very different. I find that for me, grip-strength training is very specific. If I climb on pinches a lot, I gain pinch strength, if I climb on slopers, my open hand gets stronger and if I crimp a lot, I gain crimp strength. My pinch strength does not translate much into jamming strength - to get strong ring locks, I need to do ring locks etc.

slim wrote: some folks say you can gain crimp strength by training open handed, but you can't develop open handed by only crimping.

its true and crimping plastic is silly unless you really like plastic. injuries from gym climbing are not the smartest thing to do if you enjoy being on the rock with no tendon injuries.

MJMobes wrote: its true and crimping plastic is silly unless you really like plastic. injuries from gym climbing are not the smartest thing to do if you enjoy being on the rock with no tendon injuries.

i don't think you understand what i am saying. i would argue that avoiding crimping on plastic is silly if you intend to climb crimpy routes outside. by avoiding crimping during training you run the risk of the associated pulleys not becoming accustomed to it. then, when you do crimp outside (usually while climbing at similar grades that you climb inside) you run into pulley problems pretty quickly.

slim wrote: ... by avoiding crimping during training you run the risk of the associated pulleys not becoming accustomed to it.

+1

a substantial body of evidence convincingly argues this point. If you "save your crimping for outdoors", as the reasoning often goes, you are really just strengthening the muscles which exert force on those tendons and pulleys, without having done enough to strengthen the connective tissue as well. That said, neither slim, myself, nor anyone else are making the case for jumping on every overhanging crimpy indoor boulder problem you can find. Repeatedly tossing for crimps is asking for an injury and not generally what is being referred to as "training" in these conversations. The principle is simply that you have to strengthen the entire system carefully with measured and controlled exercises that engage each desired grip position in order to both improve and stay injury-free. I would strongly advise anyone to take training (especially from an injury-prevention standpoint) seriously rather than arriving at these ideas the hard way, as was the case for me.

I have found that proper warm-up time is essential for crimping. I try to aviod it when I can, and this can be achieved by body position underneath the hold you're crimping. Sometimes the case demands the hold go from open-hand to a crimp as you move up on it, and there's not alot of ways to avoid that. Hard to improve crimp strength without crimping, so I would suggest avoiding harsh warm-ups, crimping on routes/boulders well within your ability, and adding an awareness of body position when using small holds.

SirTobyThe3rd wrote:Maybe my body position is off or something too.

It sounds like this may be it. The was a period where I made some noticeable gains on vertical, crimpy routes without any concerted effort to get stronger. Just by climbing more of that style of route, I learnt how best to get my body in the right place.

slim wrote:some folks say you can gain crimp strength by training open handed, but you can't develop open handed by only crimping.

This is what I've read too, maybe somewhere on Dave MacLeod's blog? Although I've also read elsewhere that the best way to gain crimp strength is to train crimp strength (carefully).

i don't think DMC would say it (maybe i am mistaken). i think it is fairly old, maybe from one of the early horst books?

slim wrote:i don't think DMC would say it (maybe i am mistaken). i think it is fairly old, maybe from one of the early horst books?

You're right, here's what Dave has to say on the matter:

onlineclimbingcoach.blogspo…

"In my experience, crimping is needed to get strong at crimping."

Nick Russell wrote: You're right, here's what Dave has to say on the matter: onlineclimbingcoach.blogspo… "In my experience, crimping is needed to get strong at crimping."

He also says:

"Having said all this, the vast majority of climbers crimp far too much and would seriously benefit (in both performance and injury risk) in developing their openhanded grip to a point where they use it more often than crimps and are at least as strong openhanded as crimped.

- "Mini case study: I used to be one of those who crimped too much, and averaged about 3 serious pulley injuries per year for 5 years until I finally was forced to get strong openhanded, and to love this crimp position too. Since then I’ve had one very minor pulley tweak (needing only a slight drop in training intensity for a few weeks) in the past five years."

And Dr. J, the physiotherapist who used to write for Rock and Ice, says: "Two groups of people crimp: beginners—because it feels stronger—and those who never grew out of it. Two groups of people crimp significantly less: those who naturally evolved, and those who injured themselves crimping."

I think the point is that unless you have a lot of experience and are climbing at an such a high-level that you truly need to the extra force closed-grip crimping allows you, you should avoid crimping as much as possible and train open-handed, which will make you a better climber and keep you safe from injury.

Open-handed crimping may never feel as secure but in the vast majority of situations you can still make the moves.

JIm

jim.dangle wrote: He also says: "Having said all this, the vast majority of climbers crimp far too much and would seriously benefit (in both performance and injury risk) in developing their openhanded grip to a point where they use it more often than crimps and are at least as strong openhanded as crimped."

Sure, I wasn't meaning to selectively quote in favour of crimping there; just trying to clear up the exchange between myself and Slim about the assertion that "you can gain crimp strength by open-handing"

i completely agree that it is better to try to grip open handed when possible, but sometimes the climbing dicates that you need to crimp. if you climb at areas with vertical walls and small holds, it is usually tough to completely avoid crimping.

one thing i find interesting - a lot of folks get injured climbing on pockets, which is generally an open handed position.

for these reasons, i find it pretty important to spend time training the grips that i will likely encounter at my areas (which is a lot of pockets and crimps). ironically, the only finger injuries i have had (knock on wood) was when i was training entirely by climbing in the gym. that was one of the reasons i have returned to doing 3 HB phases per year - to make sure i am developing these types of strength in a controlled fashion.