Water knots

youtube.com/watch?v=mXe-8Gm…
He hypothesizes that the water knot can be undone by catching on a rock edge or a twig. I think that can also happen with a double fisherman's,

I like Wikipedia's recommendation "for additional security each end should be tied in a double overhand stopper knot around the other standing end" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water…). It takes a lot of webbing, but it addresses Siebert's scenario and can leave the water knot clearly visible for inspection,

Why is it called the "Water Knot"?

I was told years ago by an old timer that it was because you were suppose to "set it" by soaking the (tied ring bend knot) in water and then pull hard on it to all but lock it in place until you needed it to untie. Otherwise you get cyclic loading and stories like these. Leave a large tail as well.

Note the fella upthread using it on the river and never having once seen it come undone? VS lots of folks with "my cams all fell to earth when my sling came undone on P6 of the Prow" stories. I'm with Rgold on using the double fishermans for rap anchors. They usually get cut off anyway as the aged water knot is a bear to untie.

Soak it: set it: check it periodically.

it's interesting that this has come back up as an issue, probably due to the recent report about the guide who was killed in the tetons.

last Thursday night after I finished my hangboard workout, for some odd reason I decided to take a look at the knots in the webbing for my weight plates. I tied these with water knots probably 10 years ago, give or take. the weights vary from little 2-1/2 pounders up to sets of (3) 10 pound plates lashed together.

son of a motherless goat! almost all of them had crept a huge amount. several of them had already come partially undone (as in the tail had already escaped one bend). that was pretty sobering - I would never have guessed that, despite of the fact that I am very aware of water knots creeping. I figured the weight would be way too low or something like that would keep them from creeping much.

I did have one group of (3) 10 pound plates where I had used a double fisherman's knot in the webbing, and it was fine.

I generally use the double fisherman's knot if I know that the webbing is for a permanent installation (ie rap anchor), and regularly inspect any webbing that I use with water knots, which isn't all that often. However, it makes me even more reluctant than ever to climb on someone else's gear.

slim wrote: that was pretty sobering - I would never have guessed that, despite of the fact that I am very aware of water knots creeping. I figured the weight would be way too low or something like that would keep them from creeping much.

If I understand the process correctly, the low weight would actually make it more likely to creep. The knot tightens under load, but when the load is released, it loosens up a bit over time. Because of this, a small bit slips through before the knot cinches up under load again. A smaller force would cause it to cinch up less and therefore be easier for it to loosen more over time once unloaded.

Think about it like this: you tie two identical slings with the same knot. Then you connect a 5lb weight and 10lb weight and do a factor 1 fall drop with the weight. Which sling is going to be harder to untie?

One solution I've heard of would be to sew the loose ends to the sling so they can't creep. I'm not sure weather this sewing would compromise the strength of the webbing, haven't seen any data that points one way or another.

The water knot (ring bend) is secure tied in webbing or cord. Just check it regularly. If you're in the habit of rapping off whatever tat is there without a thorough inspection you might bust your head.

mtc wrote:The water knot (ring bend) is secure tied in webbing or cord. Just check it regularly. If you're in the habit of rapping off whatever tat is there without a thorough inspection you might bust your head.

Not worth the risk or required vigilance; double fisherman's all the way, webbing or cord!

I have had them slip in 9/16" "Super Tape" as it is thicker, narrower and smoother. I am always cautious of the super tape! Always check!!!

Make sure any knot is tied correctly, dressed properly, with no daylight and has minimum 2" tails!

For the "Knot Geeks"
A knot is generally to tie 2 ends together (usually the same piece)

A bend is for connecting 2 different pieces together

A hitch is tied around an object

Tom Moyers info on knot testing is very good and well tested and has been an accepted results for more than a decade. If you have not read it, I highly recommend you do.

eli poss wrote: If I understand the process correctly, the low weight would actually make it more likely to creep. The knot tightens under load, but when the load is released, it loosens up a bit over time. Because of this, a small bit slips through before the knot cinches up under load again. A smaller force would cause it to cinch up less and therefore be easier for it to loosen more over time once unloaded. Think about it like this: you tie two identical slings with the same knot. Then you connect a 5lb weight and 10lb weight and do a factor 1 fall drop with the weight. Which sling is going to be harder to untie? One solution I've heard of would be to sew the loose ends to the sling so they can't creep. I'm not sure weather this sewing would compromise the strength of the webbing, haven't seen any data that points one way or another.

hmm, i could see this being the case if i had originally tied them not very tight, but man i reefed on them like hell when i first tied them. i have also been curious about using a minor sacrificial sewing job. it would take some practice to get it to where it doesn't slip, but yet you can still easily rip it if you want to untie the webbing.

slim wrote: hmm, i could see this being the case if i had originally tied them not very tight, but man i reefed on them like hell when i first tied them. i have also been curious about using a minor sacrificial sewing job. it would take some practice to get it to where it doesn't slip, but yet you can still easily rip it if you want to untie the webbing.

You wouldn't want to just rip the stitches out. That could damage the webbing. Instead you would want to cut out the stitches with a knife. I'm imagining something simple with a speedy stitcher, provided the holes wouldn't damage the webbing

You're supposed to untie slings and re-tie them every outing. Expecting a knot (any knot) to stay tied on it's own without inspection for years is bad juju.

The water knot is bomb proof properly dressed and popped to tighten and lock. JB

eli poss wrote: You wouldn't want to just rip the stitches out. That could damage the webbing. Instead you would want to cut out the stitches with a knife. I'm imagining something simple with a speedy stitcher, provided the holes wouldn't damage the webbing

i think you would be way more likely to damage the webbing with a knife. if you did a few stitches parallel to the length of the webbing and used a light thread (ie not something burley like nylon upholseter thread) i don't think it would do much to the webbing material.

Guys, the creative thinking is admirable but the cool thing about using the water knot (besides it being a tidy way to join webbing) is the ability to fairly easily untie it when repurposing a sling for a rappel anchor. Back in the day some climbers would stitch the tag ends down tight to make a permanent sling, while keeping a couple knotted but unstitched slings for rap anchors. Although it uses more webbing and doesn't look so nice, the double fisherman's bend is certainly a permanent and secure alternative to stitching tag ends down.

Furthermore, although the thought of carrying a knife while climbing seems ridiculous, quickly cutting a sewn sling open (not using it to carefully remove stitches) might save the day when darkness or a storm threatens. A razor blade taped inside your helmet is a cool trick. But carry on, it's fun thread!

Late to the party, but such threads never really are outdated. In the 1970's Bill Forrest took a bunch of slings to test; I cleverly thought I'd invented the "beer knot," as scores of others no doubt thought as well. Threw one of my 1" slings with that tied into the group, and lo and behold, it was the only sling that tested to the FULL loop strength, essentially not weakening the sling at all, compared to every other knot. It is tedious to tie, and worse with anything under 1", making it very impractical for onsite anchor threading use, but at home making over the shoulder runners is fine. One huge advantage, is that it can be bounce-tightened, yet still easily loosened and dismantled if you need a sling for anchor construction, and it is immune to accidental untying by the nature of its unique snake-eating-its-tail form, which appears to prevent webbing creep as well.

ELA wrote: In the 1970's Bill Forrest took a bunch of slings to test; I cleverly thought I'd invented the "beer knot," as scores of others no doubt thought as well. Threw one of my 1" slings with that tied into the group, and lo and behold, it was the only sling that tested to the FULL loop strength

ELA, you got my attention with this one. I dig the beer knot, and have often wondered about its history. 

Bruce Smith, in 1995, says he learned about the beer knot from Peter Ludwig about six years earlier. Your antidote brings the history of the knot back at least another decade, and makes sense with the name as recounted by Smith, "... something about beer being stronger than water."

1) Why the modesty? Maybe you're not the first to do it, but it's a bizarre knot. Do you have any reason to think that others stumbled across it too? 

2) Why'd you call it the beer knot? Because of its strength? I can't image many people were pull testing tape slings in the '70s...

From my experience I depends on how you tie it. Just like the figure 8 if ether is tied so both loose end are together making a teardrop shaped loop the knots will roll and come out. But tied so one live end and a dead end come out together making a true circle loop will hold.

I always preferred the beer knot over the water knot. Then I got me a Pfaff 332 and some Dynema thread and now I just sew all my own slings. 

William Kramer wrote: I have been reading a book about mountaineering, and the author states how they hate the water knot with webbing, saying it is unreliable and has a high chance of coming undone. I have personally never had an issue, and use long webbing slings connected with water knot for girth hitching natural pro, I am also a firefighter and we use same type of slings for same purposes when doing rope rescue. Has anybody ever had an issue of a water knot slipping or coming undone?

You know as a fireman that you always check your knots prior to use and you guys probably store the webbing untied and tie it just prior to use so you can adjust the tails.   We never kept our webbing pre tied because water knots do have a tendency to loosen and for the tail to disappear into the knot.   This can be fatal.  

Rappel Error – Water Knot in Anchor Tether Came Untied

On July 23, at about 10:30 a.m., an individual high on the Grand Teton reported by cell phone that he had heard a person fall from above, hit a ledge near him, and then continue down into Valhalla Canyon near the Black Ice Couloir. Shortlythereafter, ranger Bellino received an additional call informing him that a working guide had fallen unroped from the top of the Owen-Spalding rappel. A ranger on the scene was unable to locate the fallen climber at or near the Upper Saddle. A helicopter conducted a reconnaissance ight, and at about 11:55 a.m. a body was spotted approximately 2,500 feet down Valhalla Canyon from the rappel site.
A subsequent investigation determined that the victim was a 42-year-old pro-fessional guide. He had led three students and their chaperone to the summit of the Grand via the Owen-Spalding Route. During the descent, he fell from the stance at the top of the standard Owen-Spalding rappel.
ANALYSIS
When he fell, the guide was trying to free a rappel device that was attached to the end of a belay rope and was stuck in a crack about 40 feet below him. (He is believed to have been hauling the device back to the stance after one client used it for a belayed rappel to the Upper Saddle.) Although several witnesses initially said that the guide had unclipped his lanyard from the anchor, the fall was likely due to the failure of a knot on his lanyard.
Numerous witnesses stated that the guide was secured to the anchor prior to the fall. Several of the witnesses noted that he was, at times, weighting the lanyard. After the fall, a 98-inch section of blue 9/16-inch tubular webbing was found entwined in his harness. An overhand knot was
found in one end of the webbing. A photo taken prior to the technical portion of the climb shows that this webbing was tied in a loop with a water knot. One tail is visible and is of adequate length, but the knot is not tightened.

According to other guides familiar with the techniques used on the route, the guide may not have used this 9/16-inch webbing until he arrived at the Owen-Spalding rappel, meaning he would not have weighted the knot until that point in the day. The guide likely would have repeatedly weighted and unweighted the lanyard during the process of belaying his first client down the rappel, pulling up the belay rope, and then trying to free the stuck rappel device. Several studies have focused on the tendency of water knots to slip and fail when the tails are of inadequate length and when the knots are cyclically loaded and unloaded. One of these studies highlights the tendency for a significant amount of tail slippage to occur during initial loading, which would have been the case had the guide not weighted the lanyard until that point in the day.
All the evidence leads to the conclusion that the guide was tethered to the anchor with webbing that was tied in a loop with a water knot, that one of the tails on the knot was of inadequate length, that the tail slipped through the knot, causing it to fail while he was weighting the lanyard, and that this caused him to fall from the rappel stance. (Source: National Park Service Search and Rescue Report.)
EDITOR’S NOTE: A water knot should be tied with both tails protruding from the knot at least three inches, and the knot must be retightened periodically. This tragic death of a professional guide reminds us that all climbers, even the most experienced among us, must adhere to the same fundamentals of climbing, including regularly inspecting knots and equipment. 

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201214423/Rappel-Error-Water-Knot-in-Anchor-Tether-Came-Untied

Only old people and guides still use water knots. 

A properly tied and set beer knot in 1 inch nylon tubular webbing will NOT come untied unless you untie it.

I have now always use a double fisherman’s for my double length slings .... though this beer knot discussion has me reconsidering.