persistent foot numbness even when boot is too loose - help me keep my sanity

Okay MP'ers, I need advice with boot fitting and performance. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I have very hard-to-fit feet, but mountaineering and ski boots are taking it to new levels. Apologies in advance for the long post but I'm hoping to weed out replies which aren't relevant by providing detail.

So here's the thing: I have narrow feet. And ridiculously narrow heels. My heels have always been blistery no matter what I do. In rock and approach shoes, I have learned to manage it for the most part. Of course this is also a concern in boots, but I haven't really found any sort of boot that doesn't slip in the heel/rear foot. It's just a fact of life for me. I have learned some lacing techniques that help lock the heel and it works... to some degree. I'm probably still honing my application and technique, though. I don't think I have the perfect method yet.

But I'm not too concerned about blisters right now. I'm trying to figure out why I'm also fighting numbness constantly in one foot or the other. This happened to me recently in both ski boots (downhill and classic) and my ice boots despite not-very-cold temps. I figured it was because I cranked down too much on my laces/clips and they were too tight. Next step: I loosen things at the points I believe are causing the problem...attempting to do so "just enough". What happens next? I (only sometimes) have varying degrees of alleviation, but toe numbness always comes back eventually and with it poor performance later in sloppy boots because the rear foot and ankles are actually WAY TOO LOOSE.

What I've tried: leaving the laces/clips on the forefoot fairly loose and only getting the ankle and cuff tighter....but it hasn't worked. I do believe I probably have Raynaud's since I have a connective tissue disorder which predisposes to this sort of thing and that may be exacerbating the problem here.

By the way: let me just be clear that the boots have never been too small or tight in length. I am using orange Superfeet in the ice boots. My socks have varied in all boots depending on activity and weather but have generally been appropriate.

Also I should add: both feet are susceptible but sometimes the smaller foot seems worse-- even though the boot is looser. Also, the numbness may come and go; there is no "typical" response.

What the hell am I doing wrong????

Two days ago I did some classic skiing and before I even got going I had bad numbness in the toes of my smaller foot. Granted it was shady and cold and I was wearing very minimal layers on my legs and feet in uninsulated boots. So I loosened the laces a bit and then got going. Eventually started sweating my ass off but the numbness persisted for the entire workout. However, the boot was so loose that it peeled my sock down and rubbed a massive blister right through tape and body glide beneath.

Don't tell me to get Hotronics. I can't afford it right now. I am going to try some grabbers insoles though.

As you can see, I am totally epic'ing!!!!

I had a very similar problem with a pair of ski boots. My heels were too narrow so I'd crank them down and be plagued by numb feet. When I'd loosen them my feet would still go numb sometimes and i'd ski like crap (well crappier....I already skiied like crap). Ended up solving the problem with a pair of tongue spacers which force your heel into the heel pocket by taking up space on the front of your tibia. Since there are no blood vessels or nerves here, nothing gets compressed.

tognar.com/the-eliminator-c…

I think I made some homemade ones first to test the concept but the tognar ones are much nicer. BTW, the 2 custom bootfitters I paid before I stumbled upon the tongue spacers didn't help at all. I wear the tongue spacers under my socks so they could theoretically be used for many different pairs of boots.

I think this is exactly what I need for ice climbing. I have a pair of scarpa mont Blancs and I love the way they fit but my toes slam into the boot when digging in with crampons. I did try the next size up but there was too much room in the heel and sides.

Sounds rough Aerili. My girlfriend has Raynauds and it is really a bitch dealing with that. Most of the time, numbness is caused by too much pressure on top of the foot, but can stem from anywhere. Do you over-pronate? High arch/low arch? High instep/low instep? Superfeet is a good start but custom orthodics might be in your future. I am convinced that for 90% of the population, ski boots are a compromise of discomfort vs. fun factor...and that for 20% they are torture chambers. Mountaineering boots aren't that far off, but at least you can size them a little bigger.

For ankle slippage, check out this product ezeefitsports.com/

My girlfriend has used them with varying degrees of success. At least they aren't too expensive.

I can't help you on the numbness, but as far as the blisters... my wife also has odd feet. She used to get blisters in a variety of outdoor footwear, most notably her XC ski shoes. No amount of sizing, shimming, or space filling tricks helped. Then we heard about Engo pads. They stick to the shoe (not to the foot a la moleskin) and they don't stop the foot from slipping, but rather they eliminate the friction associated with it. Kinda like Teflon. They last several months. And my wife has been blister free ever since. I was amazed.

goengo.com/

Thank you for the responses. I really appreciate it. I should probably see a professional bootfitter and I think tongue spacers are in my future.

Btw, Gunkiemike, those blister pads really truly stick to the shoe well?! I have never had any luck with heel pads ever adhering for any appreciable amount of time. They are a total waste of money (although they are not the same thing as what you linked, clearly).

Ask yourself why ordinary heel pads and the like don't stay stuck in the shoe. It's because the motion of the foot/sock moves them around. But these are anti-friction, so that force is way, way less. Yes, they do stay in place, at least in the shoes my wife has put them in.

In regards to the toe numbness, don't rule out neuromas - inflamed nerves in the ball of the foot. I've had neuromas since I was a teenager. We always thought I had narrow feet, but it turns out that they needed more room than my narrow shoes allowed. Once the nerves get pinched too often between the bones in the ball of the foot, they become so inflamed that nothing but a cortisone shot will stop the pain and numbness. Making a few changes in my footwear has helped a ton, but any time the ball of my foot gets compressed, I get the toe numbness again.

A cheaper alternative to Hotronics are chemical hand/toe warmer packets. Obviously if you have to use them every time it adds up, but that would let you know if warming helps.

For downhill boots, it is possible to pad the outside of the liner, sort of on either side of the Achilles tendon area, to help with heel hold, and the pads don't fall off. I don't know if that would work in single boots.

bobbin - I already mentioned I bought some chemical warmers, but thank you.

Brigette - it seems unlikely I have neuromas as I have zero pain and no real symptoms otherwise on a day-to-day basis. Also, I can't recall the last pair of shoes I wore that felt snug in the width, and my forefoot is definitely narrow with plenty of room to move in most any shoe I own. However, I will pm you to talk about it a little more. Thanks.

go see a GOOD bootfitter, feet no happy, nobody happy!

If the numbness is in your toes, especially on your Alpine boot, you might check to make sure you've got enough wiggle room in the toe box of your liner. Any pressure on the toes in an Alpine boot causes numbness in my own feet.

I alleviated it by using a toe cap to widen the toe area a bit during the boot baking process. I used a similar process on my XC, Mountaineering and Ice boots. It took me about 3-4 tries before I got my AT boots perfect.

Depending upon your boot you might also think of upgrading your liners. I've had great success with Intuition Liners (Scarpa comes with them from the factory) The liners are generally much warmer and supportive than what comes with most Alpine boots. And they heat mold exceptionally well.

Hotronics helps with the cold feet but it doesn't help with numbness from a poorly fitted shoe. Like most have suggested a good boot fitter should be your first order of business.

Thanks, Supra. None of the boots lacked wiggle room. Some had maybe even more than enough.

I think part of this is an improper vasoconstriction response, although fitting is still definitely an issue.