ACE: Eldo fixed hardware application vote

Mark Roth wrote:The only reason to remove a pin, in my opinion, is if the pin is blocking the only natural protection. If gear is better without it, remove it. If not, leave it alone as a historical exhibit.

I agree with this sound statement and would really like to see the top two pins on the first pitch of "Over the Hill" be pulled. Clipping those relics is always enerving (no backup at all with a bad ledge fall guaranteed should those pins fail) and I would rather place standard gear in the pin scars after removing them. The "like for like" replacement policy in Eldo doesn't make much sense (at least not for these two pins in question) as new pins are likely questionable soon enough.

Is it management or ethics...

If is bomb leave it, if it is mank yank it...

Please refrain from the need to remake routes to fit some new view or for new toys...

In a park, a state park it is a manage for safety verdict.

I have clipped many a pin and known they were good just by how my biner felt in the clip.

Some pins are obviously bomb... If not, it is mank. Mank needs to be yanked.

I have enjoyed clipping old pins in Eldo and cherish the memories.

Is there a future for pegs in British climbing?

Please, read the above link. It's a great reference on the realities of pitons.

James Crump wrote:...Please refrain from the need to remake routes to fit some new view or for new toys...

James - 'new toys'? What are you referring to?

Interesting discussion.

I don't really see the "historical" aspect of fixed gear though. I might go for it if the FA left something fixed, (hammered nut, bolt, pin) that protected an otherwise unprotectable section. Although if newer gear protected that area, I don't see why the old gear should be left.

Some gear (fixed pins) are more for convenience, than history, I'm for that to a small extent.

The argument doesn't apply to my removing heads from walls in Yosemite though. Aid climbing is all about building your "ladder" up a pitch, placing your own gear. Climbing someone else's ladder is no fun or challenge.

Gregger Man wrote: James - 'new toys'? What are you referring to?

Cams and RP's boss.

Ryan Kempf wrote: Cams and RP's boss.

Good.
'Remaking routes with new toys' could have been a vague objection to replacing old bolts using our hydraulic tools. I hope new bolts in exchange for crusty old bolts isn't a debatable issue.

Mark Hudon wrote:... The argument doesn't apply to my removing heads from walls in Yosemite though. Aid climbing is all about building your "ladder" up a pitch, placing your own gear. Climbing someone else's ladder is no fun or challenge.

But by Steve's corrected history lesson this pin is someone else's ladder...
:0)

Great picture, Steve.
Chromemalloy too!

As one who has replaced stacks of bolts and participated in the first community base park management efforts... Split rivets scare the f-ing crap out of me...

I am a firm believer in maintenance, management, and documentation of fixed gear in high traffic parks. I do not support a blanket opinion that fixed pitons are bad...

I just wish someone would replace those manky wooden pitons in the Dolomites! That shite is like 80 years old....

A park should have an inventory based inspection protocol for every fixed piece with at least a basic pin testing procedure. If for any inspection-based reason a concern is raised it should be considered for removal/replacement.

At Enchanted Rock in Texas, the CTCC has run an inspection-based maintenance protocol for almost 30 years and there are some pins that have been fixed for 30+ years and are still deemed safe.

Gregger Man wrote: But by Steve's corrected history lesson this pin is someone else's ladder... :0)

I happen to understand Mark's point quite differently.
The crux of an aid wall IS placing the gear to make it weight-able.
The crux of free climbing is never weighting it.

And in that respect, I'd say that he is correct and this is quite different.

Also, Steve's history lesson applies well to my earlier point that:
"What we are talking about is gear that was placed on lead on a route where it was used for protection by the leader in the FA, or perhaps was present for aiding and then in place fixed for the FA, and was considered important fixed gear by someone, in a day and age where it was not intended to be removed."

I used to carry a hammer with me every time I did 'Over the Hill' to test the fixed pins. I usually ended up knocking them back in about 1/8" to 1/4".

When I did the FA of 'Friends in High Places' the only thing I could get in to protect the crux was a Lost Arrow. I think it is still there almost 30 years later.

Fixed pins have their place in protecting climbs. They probably need to be 'maintained' from time to time.

Has anyone noticed the pins missing off certain routes in Eldo over the last year or so ? I don,t think they just fell out !
At least one ACE member has already been removing pitons off routes in Eldo with out the approval of the climbing ranger , Steve Muehlhauser. I witnessed a rep of ACE yank the 2nd pin off the first pitch of T2 last year. After bashing it back and forth with a hammer he finally had to resort to the use of a Funk-nes device. Not much can with stand the force of those.
When questioned about it he replied several times that he was on the ACE board and this was an official ACE sponsored activity. He also stated that they didn't,t need park permission and the plan was to remove more pins in Eldo. Later , when I questioned Ranger Muehlhauser he responded "NO" they are not supposed to be removing fixed pins without approval and that he had already reprimanded them before for doing this and would now have to do it again.
I respect ACE,s great work on trails, fixing anchors and their concern for climbers safety , but in regards to removing fixed pins in Eldo to make climbing safer I am a bit confused. Climbing is flat out dangerous!!! Someone will always find a way to make a mistake and get hurt. Where do you draw the line on trying to make it safe for everybody? What if someone gets hurt because the pin "is not" there ?
On a lighter note "One man,s junk is another man,s treasure" .
Peace and fuk-nes. Steve Sangdahl

Steve Sangdahl wrote:Has anyone noticed the pins missing off certain routes in Eldo over the last year or so ? I don,t think they just fell out ! At least one ACE member has already been removing pitons off routes in Eldo with out the approval of the climbing ranger , Steve Muehlhauser. I witnessed a rep of ACE yank the 2nd pin off the first pitch of T2 last year. After bashing it back and forth with a hammer he finally had to resort to the use of a Funk-nes device. Not much can with stand the force of those. When questioned about it he replied several times that he was on the ACE board and this was an official ACE sponsored activity. He also stated that they didn't,t need park permission and the plan was to remove more pins in Eldo. Later , when I questioned Ranger Muehlhauser he responded "NO" they are not supposed to be removing fixed pins without approval and that he had already reprimanded them before for doing this and would now have to do it again. I respect ACE,s great work on trails, fixing anchors and their concern for climbers safety , but in regards to removing fixed pins in Eldo to make climbing safer I am a bit confused. Climbing is flat out dangerous!!! Someone will always find a way to make a mistake and get hurt. Where do you draw the line on trying to make it safe for everybody? What if someone gets hurt because the pin "is not" there ? On a lighter note "One man,s junk is another man,s treasure" . Peace and fuk-nes. Steve Sangdahl

Steve- Who was it?
ACE- Your response?
To me, this is a big deal if it is true. If for no other reason the presentation of "authority" that is not yours to justify the action.

Joe pulled a couple of pins and replaced them, as noted in the database:

mountainproject.com/scripts…
mountainproject.com/scripts…

In 2012 I removed two pins off P1 of Werk Supp with verbal permission from ranger Steve M. in a conversation at the base prior to climbing it.
The first was a 1.5" soft iron ring piton in a horizontal that was about as good as a RURP and 25' off the ground. The second was a bong with a cracked eye about 35' off the ground in a section of textbook #1 Camalot territory. (*permit was issued retroactively)

So let me get this straight. We have an entire system (ACE) that is set up to take into account the community's opinion regarding the fate of fixed gear. The leader of said system (Mr. Man) seems to be not only unaware of the canyon's actual history, but also tosses out the entire public process in order to carry out his own agenda. Your opinion of a pin's integrity, by your own admission, is not worth anything in this process. How, then, do you reconcile yourself to removing pins without any input whatsoever?

Whether or not you get "verbal permission" from a ranger to remove a pin seems irrelevant. You've basically just admitted that you don't believe in, nor support, the actual mission of ACE. I won't start quoting the FHRC guidelines, because it is so dreadfully obvious that you either haven't read them, or just don't care. And honestly, your justification of your actions ("about as good as a rurp, textbook #1 camalots") pisses me off. That's just your opinion, which seems to be worth less and less with every comment you post.

In addition, another member of ACE (Mr. Crotty) also takes it upon himself to do the same. Should the proverbial heads not be rolling? Seems to me that these guys simply go about the canyon, trundling and such, posting videos of it online to get pats on the back, and then basically flip the bird at the rest of the community. In other words, you're full of it. My opinion is that these jokers should go, and we should place real, civic-minded climbers and historians, such as Mr. Levin, at the helm.

Yup. Somebody will always be pissed off.
The park ranger asked that the Werk Supp pins be removed in an ACE meeting. It is their park but volunteers do the maintenance (in this instance - Mike McHugh does far more work than us.) There will always be gray areas because of this.
Commence with the pitchforks.

Nate Sydnor wrote:So let me get this straight. We have an entire system (ACE) that is set up to take into account the community's opinion regarding the fate of fixed gear. The leader of said system (Mr. Man) seems to be not only unaware of the canyon's actual history, but also tosses out the entire public process in order to carry out his own agenda. Your opinion of a pin's integrity, by your own admission, is not worth anything in this process. How, then, do you reconcile yourself to removing pins without any input whatsoever? Whether or not you get "verbal permission" from a ranger to remove a pin seems irrelevant. You've basically just admitted that you don't believe in, nor support, the actual mission of ACE. I won't start quoting the FHRC guidelines, because it is so dreadfully obvious that you either haven't read them, or just don't care. And honestly, your justification of your actions ("about as good as a rurp, textbook #1 camalots") pisses me off. That's just you opinion, which seems to be worth less and less with every comment you post. In addition, another member of ACE (Mr. Crotty) also takes it upon himself to do the same. Should the proverbial heads not be rolling? Seems to me that these guys simply go about the canyon, trundling and such, posting videos of it online to get pats on the back, and then basically flip the bird at the rest of the community. In other words, you're full of it. My opinion is that these jokers should go, and we should place real, civic-minded climbers and historians, such as Mr. Levin, at the helm.

Wow those are some pretty harsh words for someone(Gregger man) whom I know puts in a lot of VOLUNTEER time and effort and money in Eldo. Just out of curiosity when is the last time you replaced an anchor in Eldo??

I agree that the required public input is the most imperative directive that ACE has. I also agree that the removal of fixed gear is something we all should be involved in. However, if a member of ACE and the head climbing ranger make a decision to pull two very unsafe pins in favor of much safer removable gear placements, I can't really find much wrong with that. This is what we elect board members to do, and this is exactly the type of thing that gets approved time after time when it comes to hardware replacement votes. The process to approve replacements is not at all the fastest process and when it comes to safety, nostalgia or history, I am going to side with safety every time.

For your consideration:

Regarding the history of Eldo, I simply looked at the incorrect FA information listed for Peanuts here on MP. (Tony - you should update that to FFA since it's your route submission.) I am not ignorant of the history involved.

Gregger Man wrote:Yup. Somebody will always be pissed off. The park ranger asked that the Werk Supp pins be removed in an ACE meeting. It is their park but volunteers do the maintenance (in this instance - Mike McHugh does far more work than us.) There will always be gray areas because of this. Commence with the pitchforks.

It is NOT their park.
It is OUR park. We pay the fees, they get the salary, we are the customer and the owner.
Even if done at the behest of the park climbing ranger, we are to have our input.
Greg, can you and Joe consider coming over to my place for a beer or to the next BCC meeting to chat? I could also meet you in Boulder & I'm buying. I'd love to have a face-to-face on this.