marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me

Mitch Musci wrote:... Brands like Osprey, Outdoor Research, and Patagonia have amazing warranties...what is preventing Marmot from following suit?

Osprey, Outdoor Research and Patagonia are privately owned. Marmot is owned by Jarden Corporation which own over 100 consumer product brands including Sunbeam, K2, Coleman, Mr. Coffee and Oster.

I don't mean to harsh on Marmot. They've done a pretty good job of holding on to their specialty brand and keeping their products true to their users while honoring their quarterly commitments to their shareholders on the NYSE. They trade as JAH on the exchange.

Mal

No need to start a flame war here. The point is that his pack delaminated without much use, potentially depicting a warranty issue, and Marmot proudly decided that it's user error and offers a measly discount. The issue is not whether he is taking advantage of the company. Who knows, maybe he is...maybe he rubbed that shit with sand paper until it exploded, then sent it in to stir up some chaos. Obviously he would be a d-bag for doing that but that is another discussion...

The issue at stake here is smart business. Any smart company should look at that pack, notice that it looks almost brand new aside from the warranty issue, and swallow their pride. If the pack was beat up and well-used then that is an entirely different discussion.

Would it be that hard for Marmot to attempt a repair on the pack? What if they charged him shipping one way, threw some fancy tape on there/seam sealant, and shipped it back to him. Maybe the repair would last 6 months, maybe 10 years. But at least that shows the customer they tried to make things right. At the very least, Marmot owes him an explanation of why they can't fix it and maybe some advice on how to repair it himself.

Paul Hunnicutt wrote:I ordered two new iPhones from Verizon. One black, One white. They sent me two black phones. I called and they said I could exchange a black one at my local store for a white one. They even called to check and see if they had a white one ready. I had some other errands to run, so why not just stop in and exchange the phone (even though I didn't care that much about the color). They told me it would be $35 to exchange when I got there. Really? $35 to fix their mistake. A mistake that I was fixing on my own time. No offer to contact customer service to see if they would refund the $35 (which clearly was a retail store policy). They claim customer service should have informed me. I left with a black phone and if it weren't such a pain in the ass would switch carries. Will seriously consider it next time my contact is up. Doesn't take much that much to keep a customer. If I treated my clients like that I would be out of business in no time.

Precisely. That seems to be something many brass-plated CFOs seem to forget. I attend a university that focuses very heavily on business model and corporate structure. If there was only one thing I learned in the entire course of my degree it is that customer service is king. Without it your business is going to be in the shitter. It takes far more money to recruit new customers than retain old ones. Too many businesses are thinking short-term without considering the long-term consequences. You might pay that $35 exchange fee, but Verizon might very well lose out on $10,000+ over the course of your lifetime from lost service by failing to keep you happy.

As you said, it doesent take that much to keep a customer happy, but it is very easy to lose a customer, and his or her money, from near-sided short-term thinking.

As far as 0 and 00 Master Cams go, I too have had problems with the cam stops ripping off. Some people believe it is a warranty-covered issue. Others do not. Regardless, I believe the problem is the result of an engineering defect. The cam stops were poorly designed which resulted in a product that is not holding up in the field as well as comparable products. So, should consumers be entitled to a replacement? That is a hard question, but I would say yes they should be entitled to an exchange if the product is not functioning as it was designed.

Also, it is normally in the best interest for a climbing equipment manufacturer to keep their customers happy, or at the minimum give the appearance that they are doing everything they can. Whenever a product fails there is always a very serious concern for liability. If a cam fails and a climber gets hurt, the climber already has a reasonably strong case for a lawsuit because the product failed to do what it was designed to do and someone was injured as a result, which is especially a concern in The United States where liability laws favor the consumer.

Mitch Musci wrote:The issue at stake here is smart business. Any smart company should look at that pack, notice that it looks almost brand new aside from the warranty issue, and swallow their pride.

See my post above about "smart business." The move they made may actually be the best move. We don't know, and won't unless we have inside info about what Metolius, as a company, is going through.

Ryan Nevius wrote:But this could also be a situation where we're seeing people think that goods should last forever, even in a closet. Ropes get old...sitting. Materials start to break down...while sitting. Same story with some adhesives.

I've always been under the impression that a "lifetime warranty" means the product SHOULD last a lifetime if properly cared for, and if not the manufacturer will replace/fix it. If an adhesive failed after a few years of sitting in a closet, that's certainly something that should be covered under a lifetime warranty...

Ryan, I think you make a very good point, however I'm not sure I can see how Marmot's reaction in this case could be the right one. True, they could be joining REI in tightening up their policy, but my argument says they should have put forth more effort to work with him (IE attempt a repair).

Mitch Musci wrote:I'm not sure I can see how Marmot's reaction in this case could be the right one.

They may be struggling in the short term, and need to avoid any losses in the present (doubtful).

Maybe tightening up the policy will actually save them money in the long run...even if they lose a few customers, such as BB. Similar to REI. I agree with you though. In most cases, doing anything and everything for the customer is the best decision you can make, in the long run.

I wish we had more insight, from the other side. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.

Dude I'm tellin you...Facebook! Everyone can see pictures you put up, they'll have someone take care of a disgruntled customer when everyone can see him. I've had it work with a couple companies

Ryan Nevius wrote:Ropes get old...sitting. Materials start to break down...while sitting.

Technically, but not really. Materials break down, but those original nylon-6 seat belts in your 1960s Chevy convertible can still hold you in place when you slam your antique into a K-rail at 80 MPH. You might not survive the crash, but it wont be because the seat belt broke. Nylon is a fairly stable material that resists breakdown by age fairly well. If the material used in the manufacturer of a backpack breaks down to the point that it is unusable in only a few years of light use, I would call it a cheap POS. Not necessarily defective, but certainly poorly designed and/ or cheap.

So that's the $125 question. How damn old is the pack? I have an ancient TNF pack circa '91 that I used on and off for years. Never thrashed it but it saw occasional use. Probably around '01 the same thing pictured in the OP started to happen. The inner coating on the pack started to peel off. My thoughts were "bummer", the pack is getting old. I brushed out all the loose coating, washed with a DWR and the pack continues to serve me well.

I'm by no means a materials expert but age HAS to play a role in the serviceable life of things like coatings on packs etc etc. While I'm sure you could use a magic coating that lasts an eternity it probably costs a fair amount as well. People have to have at least a modicum of realistic expectations as to the useable service life of a product. Even if said product sits 11 months a year stuff just gets OLD. I feel like coatings on an extremely flexible material like packcloth simply CAN'T last forever.

The age of the product, in particular the age of the failing material, plays a large role in a legitimate warranty claim.

20 kN wrote: Technically, but not really. Materials break down, but those original nylon-6 seat belts in your 1960s Chevy convertible can still hold you in place when you slam your antique into a K-rail at 80 MPH. You might not survive the crash, but it wont be because the seat belt broke. Nylon is a fairly stable material that resists breakdown by age fairly well. If the material used in the manufacturer of a backpack breaks down to the point that it is unusable in only a few years of light use, I would call it a cheap POS. Not necessarily defective, but certainly poorly designed and/ or cheap.

...but like you admitted, materials break down. Comparing a seatbelt to a paper-thin water resistant lining just doesn't make sense. As the OP admitted, the pack was in "quite good condition" when he sent it in. It's not like the whole pack exploded.

mattm wrote:My thoughts were "bummer", the pack is getting old. I brushed out all the loose coating, washed with a DWR and the pack continues to serve me well.

+1 to this.

Knowing how to repair gear is better for everyone: from the manufacturer who doesn't have to spend time and energy replacing stuff that isn't really defective, to the user of the gear who doesn't have to hassle with returning and complaining on the internet.

Gear is meant to need maintenance. It's impossible to make a maintenance-free backpack that we'd be willing to pay for.

well folks ... heres bit more serial whining

heres an osprey mutant is that is a bit less old, but i use MUCH more ... theres holes from picks, marmots and hauling

although osprey has the "all mighty" guarantee ... i never sent it in, i just taped on seam gripped the holes and kept on using them

why? ... i actually used this pack a decent amount ... its hasnt been sitting in the closet

IMO a pack that generally sits in the closet and gets maybe 2 weeks of trail use a year shouldnt delaminate under 4 years ... and if it did then a company that advertises a "lifetime" warranty at the time should take care of it

i paid ~90$ or so for the marmot taxes in, honestly its not even worth the hassle of dealing with them and having to drive back and forth to their office to argue ... im dropping by next week and ill either ask for the pack back ... or if they offer a credit, ill ask them to make a donation to the local charity for me instead ... theres really nothing in the marmot line i want or need short of a sleeping bag, and im not spending $$$$ with them when theres companies with REAL "lifetime" warranties out there

its the price i pay for learning that "lifetime warranties" with some companies out there dont mean a thing

my osprey mutant that gets used

;)

Peter Jackson wrote: Knowing how to repair gear is better for everyone: from the manufacturer who doesn't have to spend time and energy replacing stuff that isn't really defective, to the user of the gear who doesn't have to hassle with returning and complaining on the internet. Gear is meant to need maintenance. It's impossible to make a maintenance-free backpack that we'd be willing to pay for.

Except that part of the purchase cost includes warranty replacement. Kinda of like built in insurance policy. That is the mfg expects that there will be returns and as such those costs are built into the overall product cost.

If a company offers a warranty such as Marmot and refuses to honor it I would be (and have) written letters to BBB to get the companies attention. It has worked.

Canadian BBB

Better Bearbreeder Bureau eh?

Anyone guess why that coating is breaking down...hmmm..what's up - you guys use gear all the time..anyone??

From what I can see in the picture - my guess is that it is deteriorating becauce the owner is using the fabric as the haul loop, etc. By grabbing the fabric while stuffing the pack or when moving the open pack it stretches and also stresses the coating. When a user does this, it (over a very short period of time) causes exactly what the picture shows.

Marmot is a stand up company with top products IMO - I fault this with the user and suggest that their offer to you is more than fair.

Uh, no.
Packs are meant to be grabbed stuffed and over stuffed.
Product testing?
Laminates are meant to adhere not degrade while in storage or during minimal use.
If the OP is honest about his claim (as it seems he is) he should facebook the fuck out of them as Ben B suggested.

Roots wrote:Anyone guess why that coating is breaking down...hmmm..what's up - you guys use gear all the time..anyone?? From what I can see in the picture - my guess is that it is deteriorating becauce the owner is using the fabric as the haul loop, etc. By grabbing the fabric while stuffing the pack or when moving the open pack it stretches and also stresses the coating. When a user does this, it (over a very short period of time) causes exactly what the picture shows. Marmot is a stand up company with top products IMO - I fault this with the user and suggest that their offer to you is more than fair.

this is a roll top bag ... you will notice that the delamination is occurring right at the top edges ... when the bag is closed these are protected from "hauling" ...

a "stand up" company doesnt claim a "lifetime" warranty that really isnt "lifetime"



since you posted about "top products" ... lets see what a 2 min google search with "marmot delaminate" come up with ...

Thought this would be a good jacket for cycle touring. I was wrong.

After less than a year the lining delaminated and disintegrated, and one of the zips broke. Marmot refused to repair/replace it under warranty.

Avoid Marmot MemBrain jackets.

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"I drooled over the Marmot Crystalline (women's version of the Mica) for months and finally picked one up in September 2012. At first I was in love with the light weight and low bulk. And then, after two months, the inner layer started peeling away from the outer layer, causing some serious seepage. This is not a pleasant surprise when hiking through an all-day downpour in November!

Now, I'm used to WPB shells delaminating...after a few years of use! For a jacket to survive only two months (and go through only two legitimate rainstorms) is pretty disappointing. "

.....

I took the Super Mica backpacking on Camel's Hump as a windshirt, and as an outer layer during high-intensity hiking. While in my sleeping bag- NOT while hiking- a long piece of seam tape detached from the inner lining all at once. I put it in my pack, planning to use it as evidence to return it.

The next night, while I was very gently (trust me) wiggling out of the jacket in my sleeping bag, the entire back seam from shoulderblade to shoulderblade tore like paper. This was a different seam from the tape incident, and it was right along the seam the entire way.

I've been babying this jacket, never washed it, used only a handful of times. Think, there's only been three rainstorms since August where I've been outside a lot, so less than 10 uses. It really disintegrated.

........

In the fall of 2010, I took the Mica along with me for a through hike of the Grand Enchantment Trail. I used it every day, swore it was the perfect jacket, and found it cheaply online to boot. At the end of the trip I noticed it was starting to delam badly, so sent it into Marmot to see if they'd hook me up with a replacement. No deal. I had washed the jacket a couple of times (i think...) on the trip to help with grime-causing delam, but still delamination occured. I know that delam can happen with most jackets, but I was annoyed at the time.

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I got two jackets from marmot the Precip and the driclime windshirt The precip i try out three time in the rain it allready lost it DWR coating. I try on the driclime size large the body is to tight and the arms are way to long any jackets i own are size large they fit fine. i have call them four time so far they said to send the Precip and they would check it out and try to get it back to in 7 to 8 weeks the Driclime same thing. Got to talk to someone early in cust. care i could not belive she try to talk me in to buying some new jackets instead of replacing these. Never again will i ever buy Marmot stuff again.
Have any of you guys had this kind of thing happing with these marmot jackets.


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I have a Marmot Essence jacket about 3-4 years old that sees minimal use (12 days a year I wear it). It started delaminating last week. Looks like I'm SOL.

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few years ago I went through two Marmot rain jackets with PU coatings (first a precip then a better $200 one, can't remember the name) in less than 6 months, wearing it only occasionally during morning bus commute if it was raining (so maybe 3 times a week, no heavy pack or sustained walking) and both jackets began delaminating all over the place and essentially ballooning between the fabric and the laminate (like a bubble in pizza dough when baking).


thats only a few posts that i bothered to copy ... i can post many many many more pages worth on MP if you want

now to be fair to marmot, in they do replace the jackets for some people ... but there have been cases where they havent

hardly a "top product" regardless

a "top product" and 'stand up" company with a "lifetime warraty" is defined by the durability of its gear and how it handless issues with its products ... not by the propaganda its marketing puts our or the rabidness of its fanbois

MPers can judge for themselves

google.ca/#psj=1&q=marmot+d…

google.ca/#psj=1&q=marmot+d…

google.ca/#psj=1&q=marmot+d…

;)

Roots wrote:Anyone guess why that coating is breaking down...hmmm..what's up - you guys use gear all the time..anyone?? From what I can see in the picture - my guess is that it is deteriorating becauce the owner is using the fabric as the haul loop, etc. By grabbing the fabric while stuffing the pack or when moving the open pack it stretches and also stresses the coating. When a user does this, it (over a very short period of time) causes exactly what the picture shows. Marmot is a stand up company with top products IMO - I fault this with the user and suggest that their offer to you is more than fair.

Especially if there is DEET on your hands!

14 days of use (2 weeks per year) over 4 years...that's 56 days of use. That's not a lot...but is it "minimal"?