Ivan Greene? What ever became of the chipping thing... ?

I was curious to see if there was any news and could not find the thread. The original video that sparked the thread is still online...

dpmclimbing.com/climbing-vi…

[I have no personal stake in this aside from how this pertains to access issues when such events take place]

Google mostly has stuff from February. Even supertopo doesn't have anythng new.

DPM did their job playing police, now they back to reporting the newest 14 year old climbing chipped and comfortized 14s.

Have you guys read any of those comments? It's about laughable to say the least... The dudes giving him a rash, which I agree it's a little overboard, have probably never spent a single day cleaning and chipping a route or contributing anything to the community. Until you've cleaned lichen for a week straight to expose the beautiful features of the underlying rock, you'd never understand. Witch hunt... If he were smart, he'd strategically place some bees nest along those new lines to keep the people with the issues out. Yes, I do hope I'm opening a can of worms. Every crag has a trail, it got there somehow, someone spent their time contributing so everyone else could enjoy it. Kevin, you're familiar with the 46, you should know this better than anyone. Somebody maintains those trails, cleans that rock at every crag, chips away all the loose chossy shit, that looked like what he was doing, trimming off the fat so someone didn't break off the flake and bust their ass. Two thumbs up from me... Worry more about the assholes going around cutting the bolts off the routes, not the dudes developing them...

Eric Bretthauer wrote:that looked like what he was doing, trimming off the fat so someone didn't break off the flake and bust their ass. Two thumbs up from me... Worry more about the assholes going around cutting the bolts off the routes, not the dudes developing them...

Eric - you use a crow bar to take off flakes, not a chisel and a hammer. I have friends who were close to Ivan and used to climb with him regularly. He went off the deep end and fu*ked up, esp in the gunks, chiseling an established project that had already been mostly done ruining the established beta. The Gunks rock is some of the hardest bullet rock around, loose rock is rare. There were many attempt before this to try to reason with him but it didn't stop the vandalism in the state parks. The Access Fund was consulted among others and with all advice in hand DPM set out to publicly shame him in an attempt to end the destruction. What it accomplished Kevin is that Ivan is no longer being brought around to 'new' areas and shown projects etc in the area. He is not welcome at crags. I personally know he was climbing in CT before the article and now he is no longer welcomed by those folks. So there was some very real impact. He won't be getting any sponsors anytime soon and his reputation in the indoor area as coach / setter/ leader of gunks boulder is now soiled. Have at it David!

Eric Bretthauer wrote:Somebody maintains those trails, cleans that rock at every crag, chips away all the loose chossy shit, that looked like what he was doing, trimming off the fat so someone didn't break off the flake and bust their ass. Two thumbs up from me... Worry more about the assholes going around cutting the bolts off the routes, not the dudes developing them...

Trail maintenance and widening the trail with a saw are two entirely different things. I don't think the question is whether he was defacing the rock, it's "where is he now". It's pretty obvious to me and everyone else he was chipping holds into the rock. And rather poorly to boot. You're actually the first person I've read on MP to suggest otherwise. You have some new evidence?

Thanks CptMo for the update.

What fell off was a flake it looked like to me... That being said, removing lichen, putting in bolts/anchors, or leaving webbing at the top of a route by DEC standards is vandalism in a public place. Guess we're all guilty of breaking the law eh? Even breaking a branch on a tree or fluffing the ground at the bottom of a route is defacing public property. Its a shitty way of looking at it, but flagging a trail, taking a pee, basically anything to a piece of state property is breaking some kind of law, except walking on an established trail, or climbing full trad, even that has some people pissed off. There was just a big bitch session about removing moss and lichen from boulders. Look at McKensie Pond, thats about as natural as New York city. I wouldn't ever do anything like this, don't get me wrong, I'm all about preserving what we have, but I've yet to be on a route that hasn't been altered in some way shape or form... My point is, everyone is guilty of doing something that pisses someone else off, in a year or two, people will climb those new routes and this will all be a thing that was forgotten because it added something. He's not chopping bolts like that asshole has been doing in rumney and the daks. How bout we witch hunt him???

"The Gunks rock is some of the hardest bullet rock around, loose rock is rare"

hehe

Eric, bolt choppers don't get press like route developers/ chippers/comfortizers. It is all relative until it isn't. Mob rules with public shaming. It makess our sport look very professional. I will believe Ivan was contacted when I see the communication sent to him. Otherwise looks like someone didn't like his steeze, so they used DPM as their hit man. The masses believe the propaganda without anyone asking for evidence.

I have no problem believing the guy who is definitely a born and raised city slicker has no clue on the right tools to use while cleaning. I'm surprised he didnt have a chisel bit in the drill to tell the truth.

It's a matter of degrees. Going out and assailing the rock with brute force is definitely a degree over-the-top. Prying is one thing, SMASHING is another. If someone can't see the difference try prying your hand from the table. Now, SMASH it with a hammer. Der.

There's no doubt in my mind that this will continue to happen. It's happened with bolting in certain (thankfully) limited areas in the Adirondacks. IMHO most of the resistence to the way Ivan is being treated is likely from those who fear being called out for their own behavior. ;-) From everything I read, the guy is considered a bit of a jerk. Certainly it doesn't seem a stretch to see this behavior coming from this individual.

The people who have stepped forward and taken responsibility for having confronted Ivan (unsuccessfully) privately and filming him in the act are respectible climbers, quite the opposite of what I've read, heard, and been told about the accused. It's easy for me to believe what's being said because of the people saying it. The lack of public disclosure and explanation from Ivan is hugely telling as well.

Ben Brotelho wrote:"The Gunks rock is some of the hardest bullet rock around, loose rock is rare" hehe

Ben read my mind. Never has a poorer representation of the Gunks bomber choss been spoken.

Oh wait, MAYBE that was sarcasm. lol

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Ben read my mind. Never has a poorer representation of the Gunks bomber choss been spoken. Oh wait, MAYBE that was sarcasm. lol

More the conglomerate material in general - yes up on the cliffs there's a ton of loose stuff wasn't really thinking about that but u guys are right on there... most of the bouldering I've ever seen has rarely had crap rock and is bullet with the exception of a flake or two here and there that come off with hand strength. Ive also heard from folks that have drilled the stuff that it's harder then anything else they've ever drilled.

David Sahalie wrote:I will believe Ivan was contacted when I see the communication sent to him.

So you probably don't believe that we landed on the moon, or that Obama was born in Hawaii, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

CaptainMo wrote:Ive also heard from folks that have drilled the stuff that it's harder then anything else they've ever drilled.

If you're drilling into one of those pebbles embedded in the rock, yes I can certainly see that. I don't actually think the issue is with the strength of the rock, but with its tendency to break apart under wind/rain/freeze cycles. I'm not even vaguely interested in geology though. My experience tells me there's tons of loose stuff at the Gunks compared to many other places I've been to, and this is despite the frequency of climbing there and regular cleanup by the locals.

chip away brother!
It's all "contrived" anyways...moss, dirt, lichen, bushes, trees, loose rock, etc, etc. gets removed to develop a route...one way or another, bolts aren't any more natural than manufactured holds...just my opinion, not "my rock" any more than "your rock" and not my opinion any more than yours. People only care so much because climbing is their identity and when their climbing ethics are infringed upon their identity and they themselves feel threatened. (or maybe they are "right" because they say so?)

Eric Bretthauer wrote:What fell off was a flake it looked like to me... That being said, removing lichen, putting in bolts/anchors, or leaving webbing at the top of a route by DEC standards is vandalism in a public place. Guess we're all guilty of breaking the law eh? Even breaking a branch on a tree or fluffing the ground at the bottom of a route is defacing public property. Its a shitty way of looking at it, but flagging a trail, taking a pee, basically anything to a piece of state property is breaking some kind of law, except walking on an established trail, or climbing full trad, even that has some people pissed off. There was just a big bitch session about removing moss and lichen from boulders. Look at McKensie Pond, thats about as natural as New York city. I wouldn't ever do anything like this, don't get me wrong, I'm all about preserving what we have, but I've yet to be on a route that hasn't been altered in some way shape or form... My point is, everyone is guilty of doing something that pisses someone else off, in a year or two, people will climb those new routes and this will all be a thing that was forgotten because it added something. He's not chopping bolts like that asshole has been doing in rumney and the daks. How bout we witch hunt him???

Yep....

Sooooo, DEC would fine this dude for his actions... Why don't they go to them? There's a delicate balance between climbers and DEC. Any bolt put in the rock is vandalism. Handle it legally. I had this discussion on more than one occasion about developing unclimbed areas. If I do put a bolt in, it hidden basically, and I don't ever pull out anything more than grass from a crack. I personally would never beat a rock to get a hold there, or smash it, but I have torn roots out of cracks. Still, it's all destruction to the natural land. I just wonder if someone told him it's not a good idea, like in lehman's terms.

Free Ivan Greene!
I heard he's doin time, I think he got 10 years or something.

If DPM can post a video damning the action, they can also post all this communication they had to try to stop him. AF sanctioned shaming? Lets see the evidence. Otherwise, ill continue to assume this was a largely personal matter that went public.

You've got your head in the sand, David.