Is this how everyone else passes a knot mid rap?

rockandice.com/lates-news/k…

Why bring 2 ascenders, daisies and (optional?!?) aiders?
1 sling, one prussik cord, 3 lockers, rap device:
1. Rig your device on a long sling to give yourself some working space, Prussik above this device.
2. Come close to the knot, let the prussik hold you, tie a fig 8 below you to back up the switch over
3. With the weight still onto the prussik attach the rap device to your belay loop below the knot
5. Unweight the prussik by clove hitching the brake strands around your foot and standing up like an aider, or use the sling you previously used to extend your device in a similar manner
6. Remove the prussik and rerig it if desired, untie your back up and lower

Was that so hard?
I usually like R+I but the last few things they have put up have been bizarre.

For the R&I method, you need a pair of ascenders, an aider or two, and it takes five steps? Yikes.

I climb with half ropes, and I've always thought one of the many advantages is that in an emergency, I can tie 'em together and rappel 400 feet to the ground. This requires passing the knot, and since I had my fill of wall climbing many years ago, the chance that I'd have ascenders and aiders nowadays is almost zero. There's a way to pass a knot on rappel with no ascenders or prussiks and no aiders or foot slings. However, the method only works if you have but a single knot to pass.

Here's what you do: pull the joined rap lines up until you get to the knot and put your ATC device on the rope just below the knot. Tie off the device releasably and clip it to the harness belay loop.

Girth-hitch a sling to the harness tie-in points and set up a Munter hitch rappel with the rappel biner at about head level. Rappel using the Munter hitch until your weight is fully supported by the tied-off ATC. (Practice this part somewhere mellow to make sure the Munter sling is in fact long enough to allow your weight to come onto the tied-off ATC.)

Now comes the trick: even though the Munter is still loaded, you can open the gate and pop it off the rope (try it in the same mellow place). Release the ATC tie-off and continue the rappel.

Note 1: You might find that the Munter twists the rope and starts to create a clusterf#ck near the knot and ATC. In this case, stop descending, unclip the ATC and undo the twists, reclip the ATC and continue down. If you are going to do this, make sure to do it before you get too close to the knot.

Note 2: For extra safety, use a figure-8 or butterfly loop backup tied in the rope below the ATC and clipped to the harness.

Note 3: You can still use an autoblock on the belay loop, but you'll have to remove it when you get to the rope-joining knot and re-install it underneath the knot.

1. prussik or kleimhest above the device ... attached to your belay loop by a munter mule

2. keep the prussik unweighted and rap down to your knot

3. weigh the prussik, make sure you have enough room to take off the ATC from the rope

4. pull up some slack after the knot, tie a fig 8 and clip it to your belay loop ... this is your safety should anything happen

5. take off your ATC and put it back on after the knot

6. keeping a firm hand of on the brake, simply release the munter mule ... if everything screws up youre still clipped into the 8

7. take off the fig 8 and rap down normally

the key is using the munter mule on the prussic ... if at any time it seizes, you can easily release it ...

I've used bearbreeder's method and like it.

Nigel Shepherd describes a similar method in "The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques" (2nd Edition page 201-204) using a French prusik above the rap device.

1) Abseil down until the knot is about 6" below the device.
2) Load the French prusik
2a) Take the rope out of the device and put it back on below the knot.
3) Lock off the device securely by wrapping the rope around your upper thigh
4) Reach up above the French prusik and pull down firmly until your weight comes on the device
5) Once your weight is back on the device, disconnect and release the French prusik.

As I said, I've used bearbreeder's method. I have not yet tried Nigel Shepherd's method.

EDIT: Oops, missed typing in step 2a. I'd also add a backup loop clipped to my harness before disconnecting the device. (Bearbreeder's step 4)

rgold wrote:For the R&I method, you need a pair of ascenders, an aider or two, and it takes five steps? Yikes. I climb with half ropes, and I've always thought one of the many advantages is that in an emergency, I can tie 'em together and rappel 400 feet to the ground. This requires passing the knot, and since I had my fill of wall climbing many years ago, the chance that I'd have ascenders and aiders nowadays is almost zero. There's a way to pass a knot on rappel with no ascenders or prussiks and no aiders or foot slings. However, the method only works if you have but a single knot to pass. Here's what you do: pull the joined rap lines up until you get to the knot and put your ATC device on the rope just below the knot. Tie off the device releasably and clip it to the harness belay loop. Girth-hitch a sling to the harness tie-in points and set up a Munter hitch rappel with the rappel biner at about head level. Rappel using the Munter hitch until your weight is fully supported by the tied-off ATC. (Practice this part somewhere mellow to make sure the Munter sling is in fact long enough to allow your weight to come onto the tied-off ATC.) Now comes the trick: even though the Munter is still loaded, you can open the gate and pop it off the rope (try it in the same mellow place). Release the ATC tie-off and continue the rappel. Note 1: You might find that the Munter twists the rope and starts to create a clusterf#ck near the knot and ATC. In this case, stop descending, unclip the ATC and undo the twists, reclip the ATC and continue down. If you are going to do this, make sure to do it before you get too close to the knot. Note 2: For extra safety, use a figure-8 or butterfly loop backup tied in the rope below the ATC and clipped to the harness. Note 3: You can still use an autoblock on the belay loop, but you'll have to remove it when you get to the rope-joining knot and re-install it underneath the knot.

I had honestly never thought of doing that. What a great idea!

Like you, I often climb on doubles and always pay attention to how far off the deck we are. If something happens in the first 400 feet, I know right away without a second thought that we can fix the ropes and rap.

The first thing I thought when reading D. Raleigh's method was " why does he assume that most climbers will have ascenders." Sure you'll have them on a wall, but I hope that anyone planning to do a wall already knows how to pass a knot (probably with a more simple method than he suggests).

In your experience does the munter twist the rope enough to cause a mess? I understand that you can unclip it. Could you wait until you got lower down the first rope before you even set up the atc? You could rap to within 10 feet of the knot, then tie off the Munter and pull up the knot and rig the Atc below the knot.

I use RGOLD's Munter-pop method. It works well, is fast, and doesn't require a lot of gear.

What's the consensus for the best material for a prussic?

My preferred method is similar to bearbreeders.

1. Rap down normally to within a body length of knot, Mule ATC to go hands free.

2. Tie a loop in the rope a body length below knot & clip to belay loop for backup.

3. Using a double length nylon sling, tie a Hedden or Klemheist about a foot above the ATC. Attach the other end of the sling to a 'biner on the belay loop with a mariners hitch.

4. Holding the Klemheist (to keep it from sticking) rap down until the knot is about one foot below the ATC.

5. Weight the Klemheist, then remove the ATC and replace it below the knot, secure the ATC with a mule.

6. Release the mariners hitch until the ATC is loaded (you may drop a couple of inches off the end when you release this- no big thing) . If you've done this right you will just be able to reach the Klemheist to untie it. If you can't reach the Klemheist, leave the sling or make a foot loop in the rope to step up and grab it.

7. Unclip and untie the back-up loop, release the mule and finish the rap.

I've tried the "Munter Pop" quite a bit, but I can't do it as quickly as this method. I frequently have ascenders, if I had to pass a knot, I'm certain I would use the method described above and leave the ascenders clipped to the back of my harness.

Note: If you don't practice this before you need it, you will mess it up.

TWK wrote:What's the consensus for the best material for a prussic?

Whatever you have honestly ...

Usually youll have some cord or at least slings on a multi

So learn the kleimheist

bearbreeder wrote: So learn the kleimheist

Learn the Hedden as well, it holds better in my experience.

storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDe…

And yes you can make a good friction knot out of all kinds of things, even shoelaces-if you make 'em out of 550 cord.

Similar to above, but with a Purcell.

Prusik the Purcell onto the rope above your ATC.
Rappel, allowing the Purcell to take your weight when ATC is a foot or so above the knot.
Tie a back up knot below the knot if you like.
Remove and replace the ATC immediately below the knot, muling it off.
Extend the Prusik until the ATC has your weight.
Remove Purcell and knots and continue down.

Nice options on here. I'm really digging the munter mule tech. Thank god for some of R&I's articles, without them we wouldn't be able organize a collective/better way of realistically doing things. Won't be long before there is another thread about R&I's coverage on "how to tie your shoes.".