Heavy Finger Rolls

I'm probably stepping on a landmine here, but here goes:

Has anyone here used heavy finger rolls as part of a strength training plan for climbing? If so, did they help? I'd also be curious to know what grade you climb, and how much weight you added to the finger rolls during your training. (i.e., started finger rolling 135lbs for 3 sets of 10, got it up to 195lbs, something like that). I'd be especially interested if someone made significant improvements in their finger rolls (going above bodyweight).

I have a shoulder problem that makes it painful for me to deadhang (my rotator cuff starts killing me). I can do a dozen pullups w/o pain, but can't just hang. FWIW, the dozen pullups is fine for my current level of climbing, but I don't think I could do enough pullups or stay lockedoff long enough to safely do hangboard training.

About me:
I'm 6'4", 181lbs. I redpointed my first 5.12a sport climb recently, and usually work routes around 5.11c/d. I feel that I'm relatively good at general technique, have reasonable endurance, and good redpointing skills. One of my major weaknesses is a general lack of power - my contact strength especially is relatively poor. If a route consists of a lot of sustained moves with little or no rests, I can send it. If it boils down to one hard crimp, I'm out of luck. I'm looking for a safe alternative to doing deadhangs on a hangboard. My current training is mostly doing lots of laps on routes in the gym, but I'm trying to plan out a strength cycle for when the climbing season ends.

Thanks,
David

Hey David,

I am about the same exact size as you. I redpoint 13a (trying for a 'b' this fall...)so am by no means a super-crusher or anything like that, but I do like to train. I have used heavy finger rolls in my training before and I think they're great. I started using them for the same reason- shoulder injury- and have incoporated them on and off into my training program ever since. I usually start the cycle with enough weight that I can do 5 sets of around 12 rolls (failing in the last set or two) with 1.5-2 min rest b/t sets, then as the weeks progress I build up until I am only able to do about 6-8 rolls per set. Usually this is around 125% of my body weight (175 lbs), so around 215 lbs or so...the number of reps is more important than the weight as I understand it. One thing to do some research on is whether to actually hold the bar the whole time and roll up and down or whether to pick up the bar clenched and then lower only. There seem to be different schools of thought on which one is better. I like the lower-only technique because I can use alot more weight and it's still low impact...I think that it could also be argued that focusing only on the eccentric movement may be more effective at building overall strength gains, but I'll let someone else comment further on that. In any case, I like HFRs because they get you wicked pumped and are pretty low impact. I can't really quantify how helpful they are on their own because I am usually doing a bunch of other strength exercises in the same phase, but I definitely think they help with contact strength and even a bit of anaerobic endurance perhaps...do them!

Chan -

Thanks, its helpful to hear that. 13a is crusher enough for me. :)

Yeah, from the little that I've played around with them, they seem to deliver a large pump with minimal finger strain, which seems like a GOOD THING, given that I'm coming off of several years of climbing, and feel like my tendons are fairly well developed.

Interesting idea about doing concentric-only. I'm not sure if there is a general consensus about eccentric-or-concentric-only movements for non-elite athletes. I feel like the requirement to be able to lift the barbell (and not just lower it) would force me to work with a lower weight, and reduce the chance of overwhelming my tendons..., but who really knows. :)

Thanks,
David

After reading PRC way back in the day I experimented with this. I saw gains with regard to the exercise, but was unable to determine whether or not it was a benefit to my climbing. Looking back on it now, I dont really see how it would help ( as in doing a concentric & eccentric movement ). When you latch a hold, the movement tends to be very isometric, with the exception of crimping onto a hold. I think there are much better ways to train this.

i'm not completely convinced that the hand movements in climbing are completely isometric. i think there is some ammount of eccentric and concentric movement to varying degrees. when you latch and release holds it isn't really possible to do so with no deflection of the fingers, wrist, etc. a good example is a long throw to a 2 pad hold, catching it, and rolling it up into a crimp.

that being said, i don't think i would use finger rolls exclusively (although i wouldn't comepletely discount them either). during my hangboard phase i generally do one non-isometric exercise (3 sets) per workout, usually in the warmup or as my last set.

for hangboarding, have your tried changing the configuration of how you hang? i used to hang pretty straight-armed. i have labrum tears in both shoulders (as well as arthritis, tendonitis and "anomalies") and found that i was able to do hangboard workouts without problems by bending my elbows a bit more and focusing on rotating my elbows more towards the front.

Ryan Palo wrote:...with the exception of crimping onto a hold. ...

i don't think this is the only time there is a non-isometric movement though. think about a campus workout for example, and the change in angle that your lower hand and fingers go through during the movement. i think climbers oversimplify by stating that the strength is isometric, when there is probably a decent amount of concentric and eccentric movement as well.

I have had lots of finger damage over the decades. Finger rolls on a cable machine have helped immensely.

Can someone explain how to safely do a heavy finger roll?

I know the shot in basketball ;-)

How is it better for building contact strength than campusing?

I was curious about the finger rolls and found this post.

nicros.com/training/article…

I'll try this over my current method using 25lb and 30lb dumb bells. Seated I do 3 reps with each weight to failure. Letting the dumbell roll down to my fingertips and then bringing up the weights with my fingers into a wrist curl. Then I have to work on balance, foot strength, flexibility, loose weight...oh, and need to climb more

I'd agree that the shoulder issue is way more pressing - not only is it the limiting factor in your training, but it's probably the biggest injury risk for you right now. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - especially in complex systems like the shoulder.

As Ryan Palo has said (and he certainly has data to back it up), there are far more specific and efficient ways of building isometric finger strength, namely hangboarding. Perhaps you could hangboard with engaged shoulders until you get tired, then stop before it gets painful?

And for humor.... never challenge this dude to a contest of "rollies":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhqdObXOthU

Horst's article is an interesting alternate view. I'd recommend NOT taping the A2 pulley, because the psychological feeling of security could encourage you to use higher weight than is safe. The physiological benefit of taping, though it seems intuitive, is negligible. There was a rather gruesome study with cadaver hands that showed that pulley taping doesn't actually protect the pulleys from damage under high strain.

Sorry, I didn't realize I hadn't included the link to Horst's article. Thanks, Terry Parker.

RE: my shoulders. Thanks for the concern. I've seen a couple of sports medicine doctors, and followed their advice. It is what it is. But I find that most things I'd need or want to do (i.e., limit sport climbing, max reps on pullups, pushups, most weightlifting) don't irritate my shoulders, its mostly deadhanging on a pullup bar and doing dips. So I stay away from those.

Ryan Palo -

I'm a big fan of your blog, thanks for replying.

If you have a chance, could you elaborate on your comment?

I remember seeing you mention on your blog (here, I think: ryanpalo.blogspot.com/p/tra…) that you do finger rolls at 120% of bodyweight for 3 sets of 8, or so, as part of your training cycle. Have you changed your mind on including them in your routine?

When I do finger rolls, I do significantly less than 120% of bodyweight, and I was kind of using that number as a target (i.e., get to where I can lift that much, don't worry about lifting more). At that point, I was hoping to have built up enough pullup-strength to follow a hangboard workout routine, with bent arms the whole time.

Thanks,
David