Why shouldn't you clip a bent gate carabiner into the protection or bolt?

REI wrote this warning and I am wondering what it prevents:

Warning: Bent-gate carabiners should only be used on the end of the quickdraw or runner which the rope clips into. Never clip them directly to the protection.

Any thoughts?

It's easier for the hanger to open a bent gate as it rotates around

Both bd & petzl show the potential for it to fatigue due to how constricted it becomes in the sling. So it's more the sling & constrictor band (or whatever you use) meant for better clipping rope-side which won't allow for the biner to move with the energy. Essentially, it's somewhat similar to crossloading a biner.

What if the string or gasket is off? Its really that much more likely to open?

Buff Johnson wrote:Both bd & petzl show the potential for it to fatigue due to how constricted it becomes in the sling. So it's more the sling & constrictor band (or whatever you use) meant for better clipping rope-side which won't allow for the biner to move with the energy. Essentially, it's somewhat similar to crossloading a biner.

There are two reasons why you should not clip the bent gate side biner to the hanger.

The first is if you clip the rope side biner to a hanger, fall on it, and then clip it to the rope on a different climb, you can shred your rope. When you take a fall on a steel hanger, the hanger cuts into the aluminum biner and leaves a sharp indent called a hanger scar. Biners with hanger scars should not be clipped to a rope.

Second, the rope end biner of a draw is almost always fixed to the dogbone someway to enable easy clipping. It is not recommended, but not a death sentence, to clip the fixed end of a draw to the bolt. The reason being is that if you clip the rope end to the hanger, rope drag can flip the biner around causing it to come unclipped from the hanger. That is the reason why manufacturers do not fix the rope end of the biner to the dogbone. But in reality, it is hard for this to happen. I used to climb with fixed biners on both sides of my draws before I learned about this issue and unfixed the bolt side. For two years I climbed that way and never had a biner come unclipped. However, you do increase the risk of it coming unclipped if you use a fixed biner on the bolt side, so it is not recommended.

Lastly, there is nothing inherently unsafe about using a bent gate biner on a bolt. The issue is using the rope side biner on the bolt. But, if for some reason you want to use bent gates on both sides of your draw, you could. Just dont mix them up, use one for the bolt side and the other for the rope side.

edit: It is also more likely for a biner that is terminated short to the draw to get crossloaded and pinched in a hanger.

I also like this part from the original REI page :

" But if not used properly, bent-gate carabiners can unclip from your rope. "

right, unlike other carabiners? Does anyone have any solid information about bentgate carabiners being more likely to unclip due to back clipping or being more susceptible to unclipping from a hanger? Controlled comparisons of otherwise identical, straight vs bent gate only, please. Anecdotes need not reply.

Petzl's tech pdf on their draw shows the fatigue issue, page 4 diagram (they even drew a double-sided arrow to show the crossload). That's the reason for the safety notice. I tried to see if I could just cut & paste the diagram, but I can't.

They have the other issues diagrammed as well.

berl wrote:I also like this part from the original REI page : " But if not used properly, bent-gate carabiners can unclip from your rope. " right, unlike other carabiners? Does anyone have any solid information about bentgate carabiners being more likely to unclip due to back clipping or being more susceptible to unclipping from a hanger? Controlled comparisons of otherwise identical, straight vs bent gate only, please. Anecdotes need not reply.

Indeed, a backclipped draw that has a bent gate on the rope side is more likely to come unclipped than a backclipped draw with a straight gate on the rope side. The reason being is that it is easier for a rope to catch a bent gate than a straight gate. After all, that is specifically what bent gates are designed for. They are designed to catch the rope making it easier to clip the draw. However, the relevancy ends there. Bent gates do not have any influence on the chances of the draw coming unclipped from the bolt.

As far as scientific controlled tests go, sorry, I dont have much to provide as I am fairly confident the test you are asking for has never been conducted. Or at least, it has never been publicized. Unclipping a backclipped draw is actually pretty difficult in the real world. I have tried really hard to get a backclipped draw to come unclipped before, and I couldent do it. I gave the draw the best possible chance: I used a really short draw, I fixed the biners on both ends of the dogbone and I used a solid bent gate on the rope side.

Buff Johnson wrote:Petzl's tech pdf on their draw shows the fatigue issue, page 4 diagram (they even drew a double-sided arrow to show the crossload). That's the reason for the safety notice. I tried to see if I could just cut & paste the diagram, but I can't. They have the other issues diagrammed as well.

Do you have a link?

their website is a friggin pita. try this (as an example):

petzl.com/us/outdoor/non-lo…

click on the tech notice link for the pdf.

Linky

Linky no work!

Buff Johnson wrote:their website is a friggin pita. try this (as an example): petzl.com/us/outdoor/non-lo… click on the tech notice link for the pdf.

Yes, indeed the issue they show in the tech notice is made more likely if you clip the fixed end of the draw into the hanger. But, that issue can happen on the free end of the biner as well, it's just not as likely. But in any case, the chances of that happening are pretty slim, regardless if you clip the fixed end to the hanger or not. Furthermore, the UIAA closed gate strength requirement of 20 kN is sufficient to allow you to load the biner halfway between the gate and the spine, as shown in the example, and not break the biner on a single pitch fall (assuming the gate stays closed). I have pull tested a few biners with the load placed in the middle as shown in the diagram, and in all instances, the biner was still stronger loaded in that manner than it would have been if loaded correctly with the gate open. In other words, the biners were still strong enough to arrest a single pitch lead fall. However, I have never tested the biner's strength with the load placed right next to the gate. I am curious how much that would reduce the strength.

Now it does.

20 kN wrote: Furthermore, the UIAA closed gate strength requirement of 20 kN is sufficient to allow you to load the biner halfway between the gate and the spine, as shown in the example, and not break the biner on a single pitch fall (assuming the gate stays closed).

Which is why I said it's a fatigue issue.

Buff Johnson wrote: Which is why I said it's a fatigue issue.

What do you mean by fatigue? As I understand it, the term fatigue, in material sciences, refers to the eventual failure of a material from cyclic or long term excessive loading. I don't see how either of those apply in this example.

I have bent gate positrons for the protection side and hot wires for rope side with petzl dog bones inbetween. Am I gonna die? If I understand what Petzl is saying correctly, it has nothing to do with the biner, it has to do with the anchor-end of the dog bone, it "must be mobile (no STRING)". "STRING" meaning the captured end. WTF is rei sayin? It doesn't make sense to me that a bent gate should "Never clip them directly to the protection".

socorroscott wrote: The bent gate carabiner is designed for ease of clipping the rope, and the constricted end of the draw allows that carabiner to stay in place for clipping the rope. Also, the constricted end of the draw prevents the carabiner from cross loading as rope drag moves the draw around. The straight gate end of the draw for attaching to the anchor is loosely connected to the carabiner which allows the draw to move with the rope drag, thus preventing twisting and cross loading. With a bit of sport chuffing, the anchor end of the draw will get little nicks and burrs on the carabiner. This is no big deal in itself, but potentially dangerous to run the rope through the roughed up carabiner. I am not sure if the bent gate is easier to unclip from a hanger or not, but they have the same strength rating as a corresponding straight gate. Sorry if that was a bit long winded, but I hope it helps.

This video demonstrates what you're saying: even a small amount of wear on the 'biner can have extreme negative effects for the rope.

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/carabiners-and-potential-rope-damage/

MattThomas wrote: This video demonstrates what you're saying: even a small amount of wear on the 'biner can have extreme negative effects for the rope. dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/c…

wow... great demo.

MattThomas wrote: This video demonstrates what you're saying: even a small amount of wear on the 'biner can have extreme negative effects for the rope. dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/c…

Interesting video for sure ! I thought most pre-made quick draws had the dog bone be stiff on one end ( Rope side) and loose on the other (Hanger side)?

I wonder if the metal wire of a nut could cause burs to form on biners?

Buff Johnson wrote: Which is why I said it's a fatigue issue.

Yea. Fatigue refers to slow failure due to cyclic loading. Like 100,000 to 1,000,000 times loading and unloading. I doubt anyone in the world has ever fallen on a draw a hundred thousand times.

So, what DO you mean?