Placing gear in Limestone pockets, cracks?

Does anyone have experience placing gear in limestone pockets and or cracks. I have a large rack of cams, a few large hexes, some passive nuts but I dont have any tri-cams. The area I'm climbing in is under developed and the locals dont have any gear but draws. Lots of opportunities to climb steep limestone and the rock quality is excellent (at least what I've climbed). Only been here 2 months and havent climbed on the rock enough to tell whether the pockets would work for cams (havent tried them honestly) but have heard tri-cams work well in pockets. Waiting for the feedback and the heckling so have fun

Eric Coffman wrote:Does anyone have experience placing gear in limestone pockets and or cracks.

Yes.

Eric Coffman wrote:...havent climbed on the rock enough to tell whether the pockets would work for cams (havent tried them honestly)

How can we give feedback on an area you haven't even spent the time to inspect?

Eric Coffman wrote:...heard tri-cams work well in pockets

Depends, like everything else.

Eric Coffman wrote:Waiting for the feedback and the heckling so have fun

Climb there more. Check out the rock. Place some gear. Take some safe falls. We can't help you here.

I'm sure Bob D'Antonio might have some perspective on that. I think he established some cool routes at Shelf Road, ground up, placing gear like tri-cams in pockets (e.g., Lats Don't Have Feelings). Hopefully he'll post up here.

I have been climbing at Cantabaco for the past 2 months every weekend. Mostly getting acclimated to the rock since this is the first limestone climbing I've done. Also been focusing on making friends with the locals so I at least have some partners when my wife cant climb. Very small community here and they had never seen a cam until I showed them mine. I will place some pro and see what I think. The rock is pretty fantastic but much smoother and less uniform than jtree, tahquitz, tuoleme where I've done the bulk of my climbing. not many pockets in those areas that are similar to what I have here. I guess this is where I have to put the gear to the test.

As Ryan said, inspecting the cliff would be more useful than asking the internet! That said, most of my climbing is on limestone, of varying quality. In general small-ish nuts (and to a lesser extent small cams) are the most useful. Take some narrow slings/tape because threads are quite common and often the only pro I'd actually trust. Tricams seem to be a personal preference, whatever you're climbing on. If I take them, I'll place them, but they're rarely essential.

Buy a drill. You'll get tired of having to use the best holds for gear instead of your hands, especially on the harder stuff. If there's a lot of fissures in the stone that would indicate some chossiness and nat pro would be more suspect.
Post up some pics!

Delta Bravo here are some shots of "Vina Kulafu" 5.11a/b named for a filipino wine. will keep the pics coming when I have some camera slaves. There is a big wall right next to this wall about 3 pitches i think. lots of climbing on other islands also, not to mention Deep water soloing (never done it but it is my x-mas gift to myself)

Nick Barczak wrote:I'm sure Bob D'Antonio might have some perspective on that. I think he established some cool routes at Shelf Road, ground up, placing gear like tri-cams in pockets (e.g., Lats Don't Have Feelings). Hopefully he'll post up here.

I'm pretty sure bob d deleted his mp acct last year after getting all butthurt about some politics thread...

He was heavily slandered by a couple of young ass punks from Wyoming.

Eric- that rock looks super sweet. Unfortunately, this is a bad, bad day for us in the Denver area so I'm not spending any more time posting. Suffice it to say there's a reason why all the major limestone crags get sported out.

Delta Bravo wrote:Eric- that rock looks super sweet. Unfortunately, this is a bad, bad day for us in the Denver area so I'm not spending any more time posting. Suffice it to say there's a reason why all the major limestone crags get sported out.

Did you know any of the people or have any relation to the shooting? Otherwise I am wondering why you are so shook up you can be browsing and posting on MP but not able to post a full response... Seems odd is all im saying.

Tricams do work well in small pockets but limestone tends to be very brittle and, while gear will hold body weight, in a real fall the rock will shatter. I don't know if that will be the case where you are.

Eric, is that on Palawan?

To answer the original question, cams do not work well on smooth, parallel, limestone. However, the medium is usually not smooth and parallel. Also, limestone is brittle and small rugosities (sp) will break under pressure. You just have to find the right placements. And it depends on the limestone... thats a pretty big category of rock.

Totem cams were designed with European limestone in mind. They have higher holding power and small head widths that work better in constrictions and pockets. They have a small enthusiastic following in the U.S. for non-limestone climbing, including many people who were sceptical before trying them out.

This doesn't mean they'll be optimal everywhere (they are not well-adapted to the softer sandstones), but they are probably the best cam for the job on limestone.

i've climbed limestone on gear a decent amount, and as others have posted it varies greatly. i have fallen on a #4 bd stopper, purple tcu, black alien, and wierd sideways tri-cam and they held. however, i fell on a #2 camalot and blew a pretty large column out (scary as hell).

one of the points above, about gear in pockets taking up the best holds is pretty true - it definitely makes things more difficult.

i'm not sure whether the greater holding power will necessarily be better on all limestone. the greater outward force could exacerbate the issue of crushing the 'case hardened' outer shell of the limestone, which would lead to friction loss.

Here's someone who trusts Totem cams on limestone:

youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh…

Not to mock Little Arnie as he is a far better climber than I, but those things hold really well when you wire the route, pre check from above, and generally don't plan on weighting anything. Just sayin.
For what its worth, a fall of any good distance would likely break the tufa rock. We don't have to worry about this so much in the USA, but if your planning on cams in SE Asia you should know this. Also, cams don't last too long in SE Asia coastal karst formations... like weeks.

I climb limestone almost exclusively as it is what is available without 10 hr roadtrippin. Something to remember:

Limestone is bomber until it isn't...it's a love/hate relationship that will eventually end with a healthy respect for the rock. Not uncommon to be on a climb that has been used and abused then pull a chunk out of the wall. I won't place gear on limestone for this reason.

listen to delta bravo - buy a drill. You can place a piece and place it again in the same location on another day. Will it hold the next time? Maybe is all you'll get. I've been on the wall and pulled on a hold only to notice a hairline fracture open where there was none before I weighted it. If you like those odds climb on. If not, bolt it up and take advantage of all the great features limestone offers

rgold wrote: Here's someone who trusts Totem cams on limestone: youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh…

Indeed a good video, however I would not call that an appropriate example to back your claim that falling on cams in limestone is safe. Granted I am not saying it is not safe, but Alex Honnold has free soloed 5.13, so does that mean that anyone can solo 5.13 and it will all be okay? I think not. There are tons of videos, just like this one, showing climbers trusting a 70 footer onto a single stopper, or something of that nature. All of those types of videos are exceptions to the normal climbing realm, and nearly all of them show you specifically what you should not be doing, not what you should be doing. Just because everything played out fine in a video does not mean you can do the same and expect the same results.

<Eric, is that on Palawan

No Sam its on Cebu at a crag called Cantabaco. I've started posting about the area check the destinations section. I gotta say it rocks. Pretty much awesome stone close to the road but surrounded by jungle so it feels like your deep in the wilderness. Climb in the shade and belay in the shade. Has multipitch right there. Beginners routes up to stonemasters. Mostly 5.11-5.12 though.

Eric Coffman wrote:<Eric, is that on Palawan No Sam its on Cebu at a crag called Cantabaco. I've started posting about the area check the destinations section. I gotta say it rocks. Pretty much awesome stone close to the road but surrounded by jungle so it feels like your deep in the wilderness. Climb in the shade and belay in the shade. Has multipitch right there. Beginners routes up to stonemasters. Mostly 5.11-5.12 though.