Building Anchor w/Rope & Escaping the Belay

After seeing suggestions to use the rope to build an anchor from several climbers who've been climbing far longer than I, I decided I'd try to become proficient at it and that was what I did this past weekend.

I found it to be pretty easy and it has all the benefits people have mentioned: simple, fast, stronger and more energy absorbing than cord.

But, I also discovered a really big limitation to the system that I'd not considered. As the belayer, you aren't so much clipped into the anchor as you are a part of the anchor. It dawned on me that there would be no easy way to escape the belay if necessary.

I can't think of any way to do it other than by building another anchor, which wouldn't be nearly as quick as escaping w/other systems and may not be possible in some cases (i.e. when you don't have any gear left).

So, I'm wondering why so many recommend that method. For those who do, how would you deal with the situation if you had to escape the belay? Or, is that a scenario that this method simply doesn't equip you to handle?

Or, am I completely overlooking some obvious solution?

Edit to add: I suppose you could always lock off the belay, use prusik/kleimheist to secure yourself to the climbers side of the rope, untie from your end of the rope, and then jug down the rope. But, that seems far from ideal to me.

The quickest way I can think of, instead of building another anchor, start with having the rope anchor using a 8-bight or butterfly that distributes to other piece(s) on cloves -- switch over to that bight as the master point to baseline your climber, instead of your harness, then incorporate some type of independent lanyard (sling, PAS/Chain Reactor, daisy, cord) for your tie-in.

It almost seems counterproductive (maybe totally unproductive) to fight the weight of your climber and try to fish for gear and placements to build that second anchor.

Buff Johnson wrote:The quickest way I can think of, instead of building another anchor, start with having the rope anchor using a 8-bight or butterfly that distributes to other piece(s) on cloves -- switch over to that bight as the master point to baseline your climber, instead of your harness, then incorporate some type of independent lanyard (sling, PAS/Chain Reactor, daisy, cord) for your tie-in. It almost seems counterproductive (maybe totally unproductive) to fight the weight of your climber and try to fish for gear and placements to build that second anchor.

If I'm interpreting that correctly, I don't think that's effectively any different than what I was doing as I was belaying off of the anchor rather than my harness. The biggest problem as I see it is getting yourself disconnected from the anchor so that you can assist or get assistance.

But, maybe I'm not correctly visualizing where in the system you're suggesting the 8 be placed???

If you want to escape the belay completely (i.e., to prussik or jug up the rope), you can simply put your prussiks on the rope then untie from the anchor.

If you want to get your end of the rope out of the anchor also, you can move it to a cordalette. You don't need to build another anchor to do this. You can clip the cordalette into the pieces of your existing anchor. You will likely have some carabiners remaining to do this with. They might not be lockers, but non-lockers will be fine in a pinch to transfer the load to the cordalette. You can replace them with lockers as you break down the rope anchor.

In anticipation of your next question...I carry a cordalette with me on most long climbs even though I almost always build anchors with the rope. I do this because of its versatility. But you could just use slings instead.

How about this?:

Edit to add: Then tie a butterfly knot to remove that six foot loop of slack...

Gregger Man wrote:How about this?: Edit to add: Then tie a butterfly knot to remove that six foot loop of slack...

That's a great solution, I really like that. My tactic would have been to bust out a cordolette or bunch of slings and basically do the same thing to transfer the load.

@The Bobby - Yeah, I thought about the option of bringing cord along to create a 2nd equalizing master point. Obviously, that would work. But, if I'm carrying cord anyway, may as well just build it using the cord so that, if I had to escape, it's a simple matter of tying off the belay.

And, believe it or not, I've found myself at the top of more than a few pitches with very little to no gear left including 'biners, slings, etc. Usually, that's because I went a bit overboard in my effort to keep it light. But, there are also those long, wandering routes that really did require every alpine draw/extended sling that I had in order to either avoid rope drag or minimize the potential that a piece would walk or get pulled out by the rope.

@ Gregger Man - Those look like good ways to lock off the belay but, if I'm following the pics, you still have to untie from the rope to disconnect from the anchor.

Maybe that's the answer to my question. If you don't have the gear needed to create a secondary equalizer/masterpoint, you have to untie. So, it seems like there are solutions to the problem if you ever find yourself in that situation but they're not as efficient as the options you have available if you've built the anchor with cord.

Crag Dweller wrote:@ Gregger Man - [...]if I'm following the pics, you still have to untie from the rope to disconnect from the anchor.[...]

Once you've transferred the load, you can remove the belay device and completely un-clip your original three loops (assuming you're ready to be un-anchored.) You would still be tied in on the tail end of that anchor with whatever slack that was left. If your follower was past the halfway point (plus ~15'), you might have enough rope to prusik down to him (assuming you've got another prusik loop or alpine sling) without untying.

muttonface wrote:It depends on the scenario and what exactly has occurred. Escaping a belay while belaying a follower with the belay on the anchor and not your harness would be easier than say belaying a leader off your harness. Which scenario are you thinking of? And you're right. Using the rope, just like any other means of anchoring has its advantages and limitations. Another limitation I can think of using the rope to anchor is if you're not swapping leads on multi-pitch. That being said, if you're doing multi-pitch and swapping leads every other pitch, I still think anchoring into multiple pieces with just the rope is the way to go.

Belaying off the anchor is the scenario I'm thinking of. I tend to do it that way for the reason you mention and the fact that it gives a little more freedom while you're at the belay. About the only time I belay a 2nd off my harness is when I don't fully trust the anchor. It's a scenario I try to avoid but have found myself there on a few occasions.

Yeah, I realized it wouldn't exactly work if you're not swapping leads. Fortunately, I realized that before putting myself in the situation. It would've sucked to discover that when out leading someone up a climb. I'm thinking my GF would be a bit unhappy w/me if she got to the top of a pitch and I told her that she was going to have to lead her first trad pitch ever because I got myself locked into the belay and couldn't get out. Haha.

Gregger Man wrote: Once you've transferred the load, you can remove the belay device and completely un-clip your original three loops (assuming you're ready to be un-anchored.) You would still be tied in on the tail end of that anchor with whatever slack that was left. If your follower was past the halfway point (plus ~15'), you might have enough rope to prusik down to him (assuming you've got another prusik loop or alpine sling) without untying.

Hmmmm, cool, I'm going to have to recreate this set up when I get home and check it out.

Edit to add: Doh! I just realized those pics were steps rather then 3 different options. Clearly, I've got to stop multi-tasking.

Crag Dweller wrote: Yeah, I realized it wouldn't exactly work if you're not swapping leads. Fortunately, I realized that before putting myself in the situation. It would've sucked to discover that when out leading someone up a climb. I'm thinking my GF would be a bit unhappy w/me if she got to the top of a pitch and I told her that she was going to have to lead her first trad pitch ever because I got myself locked into the belay and couldn't get out. Haha.

It works fine for swapping leads. Coil the rope into flakes as you take in the followers slack. Switch ends of the rope with your partner after securing both of you to the anchor.(Yes, this can all be done with the same rope you have built the anchor with) Flip stack over. Lead on.

Of course in that situation it would be quicker to use a secondary method rather than the rope but by using the rope you are by no means locking your GF into her first trad lead. Just think how pissed she would be if you made her do that and found out later that you could have just swapped ends?

Yarp wrote: It works fine for swapping leads. Coil the rope into flakes as you take in the followers slack. Switch ends of the rope with your partner after securing both of you to the anchor.(Yes, this can all be done with the same rope you have built the anchor with) Flip stack over. Lead on. Of course in that situation it would be quicker to use a secondary method rather than the rope but by using the rope you are by no means locking your GF into her first trad lead. Just think how pissed she would be if you made her do that and found out later that you could have just swapped ends?

good point! haha, hopefully, i'd have figured that out if i did actually find myself in that situation. if i wasn't able to, i'd question whether or not i should be leading someone up a climb in the first place.

Crag Dweller wrote:But, if I'm carrying cord anyway, may as well just build it using the cord so that, if I had to escape, it's a simple matter of tying off the belay.

I find that building the anchor with the rope is much faster and much easier for me to equalize. YMMV. Even when I have cord with me, I will usually opt to build with the rope. The major exception to this is when I am leading in blocks, and even then I sometimes do so. It really all depends on the situation.

Honestly, I don't worry about how easy it will be to escape the belay when I'm building an anchor.

Yarp wrote:It works fine for swapping leads. Coil the rope into flakes as you take in the followers slack. Switch ends of the rope with your partner after securing both of you to the anchor.(Yes, this can all be done with the same rope you have built the anchor with) Flip stack over. Lead on.

(minor point: you don't want to both switch ends of the rope and flip the stack; but I think you probably already know that)

Alternatively, the second can tie in with their rope using the lockers from the previous belay. This should not take more than 30 seconds, and is much less hassle than untying and swapping ends.

once you practice a few times you'll get to the point where escaping the belay isn't much different for either anchoring method. just takes some practice.

slim wrote:once you practice a few times you'll get to the point where escaping the belay isn't much different for either anchoring method. just takes some practice.

This makes the most sense to me. To make it even simpler, why not just have the follower sling onto you masterpoint, then duplicate your tie-in (atomic clip/sliding 8/two-looped-thingy/etc) and just clip it straight into the leader's biners at the pieces? Then the leader just flips the stack and unclips from each locker while leaving the second in them.

MegaGaper2000 wrote: This makes the most sense to me. To make it even simpler, why not just have the follower sling onto you masterpoint, then duplicate your tie-in (atomic clip/sliding 8/two-looped-thingy/etc) and just clip it straight into the leader's biners at the pieces? Then the leader just flips the stack and unclips from each locker while leaving the second in them.

Yep, that'd work too. Keeping all that from turning into a cluster would take a bit of practice though, I reckon.

...and yes Bobby, I stand corrected, you wouldn't want to flip the stack if you're switching ends. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure why I wrote that as I've done that exact change over at least 100 times.

MegaGaper2000 wrote: This makes the most sense to me. To make it even simpler, why not just have the follower sling onto you masterpoint, then duplicate your tie-in (atomic clip/sliding 8/two-looped-thingy/etc) and just clip it straight into the leader's biners at the pieces? Then the leader just flips the stack and unclips from each locker while leaving the second in them.

Why would you need to escape the belay if your follower was able to get there?

Crag Dweller wrote: Why would you need to escape the belay if your follower was able to get there?

I can't speak for mega but my responses were in regards to the comment up thread about having to swap leads. I'm assuming that's what he was referring to as well.

Crag Dweller wrote: Why would you need to escape the belay if your follower was able to get there?

+1

'Escape the belay' doesn't equal 'swap leads as per normal'

Not to be overly simplistic, but to escape the belay just untie.

I generally belay off the anchor with a gri-gri or reverso. Tie off the brake side (as a back-up) with an 8, then untie & go. If necessary one can clip into the anchor with something else or into the rope with a klemheist/prussik/friction hitch or choice.

Gregger Man wrote: +1 'Escape the belay' doesn't equal 'swap leads as per normal'

Did someone imply that it did?