Black Diamond Aspect Climbing Harness **FAILURE** warning long post

Trust in the gear is critical. Once you lose that trust it all comes apart. Having to constantly worry about leg loops loosening and the harness itself possibly loosening is not a problem I or anyone should be willing to put up with.

JLP wrote:I'm sure all the best at Black Diamond have put aside their other responsibilities and deadlines to make responding to this thread and the stupid questions therein a top priority.

+1, JLP and Yarp should handle all further questions regarding tis topic for BD.

bkb0000 wrote:having the harness loose isnt necessarily a problem. if your speed buckles work themselves loose from loading/unloading, just re-cinch when you can.. an extra inch or two isn't going to make much of a difference. but if they slip at ALL when shock loaded, that harness needs to be taken out of service- period.

i guess i don't see why it is ok if they loosen up over the course of a pitch, but not ok if they do it more quickly? i probably wouldn't call it "FAILURE" necessarily, but i definitely wouldn't say that there isn't a problem either.

sfotex wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's funny that this inflammatory thread on BD harness **FAILURE** is right next to one on how do I pull test my janky aliens I bought off fleabay (8 pages vs. one page)

caughtinside wrote:well you bumped both threads so there is a perfectly rational explanation why both of them are next to each other.

Hahahah. You don't understand how this internet thing works, do you?

You think eBay is the only place to buy used gear? I bought my (newer) set of Aliens from this website, genius. My older ones I bought from an EMS back east ~1997.

--Marc

Marc H wrote: Hahahah. You don't understand how this internet thing works, do you? You think eBay is the only place to buy used gear? I bought my (newer) set of Aliens from this website, genius. My older ones I bought from an EMS back east ~1997. --Marc

I might not be a genius, but I'm not the one buying used gear I don't trust.

Sam Stephens wrote:BD saying that all manufacturers speed buckles slip is not correct in my opinion. I've been climbing in my Synchro for two years and it hasn't slipped once.

So you're saying that because YOUR ONE HARNESS hasn't slipped no other Synchro harness ever will and by extension no Wild Country harness can possibly be subject to slippage? And the fact that the next poster had 2 OF THEM never slip confirms this beyond reasonable doubt I imagine?

Internet arguments...

i was just pointing out that my syncros haven't slipped at all, and my BD did every pitch. i also have an old petzl with speed buckles that has never slipped at all.

did i consider the BD to be unsafe, not necessarily. however it didn't really inspire confidence. also, it was kind of like buying a new car and have the thing using a quart of oil every couple thousand miles. doesn't exactly feel like you got what you paid for.

I fear that BD is very "butt-hurt" from this thread.

sfotex wrote: I might not be a genius, but I'm not the one buying used gear I don't trust.

They will be trusted once they are tested. Hence the thread you mentioned.

Are you intentionally being obtuse, or does logic really elude you that much? Either way, I don't need to feed into it anymore. Have a good one.

--Marc

really late update...

I know I have been gone from this thread for a very long time now, but I felt like I should update everyone on a final note from BD. After this incident I had some personal matters to attend to, sold my home and moved to a new home, and also going on a trip/vacation, so I was to busy to check the internet...and frankly I was tired of all the BS/non-constructive comments here that I gave up on trying to inform the public or help anyone else out with the problem I experienced. BUT here it is anyways, the email the I got from BD, which is similar to the response someone else recieved...

"I have received your Aspect harnesses via our Warranty Department and of course have seen the ever-growing post on Mountain Project that seems to be only about 20% related to the actual issue – typical for Blog postings really.

As I’m sure you can imagine, we take all reports of any issues with our products, especially PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) very seriously. Here at BD, we’re all climbers, climbing in these harnesses; our spouses, kids, and friends all climb in these harnesses. So we take this stuff seriously.

Just so you know, every batch of BD harnesses is tested to the CE and UIAA climbing and mountaineering requirements (though to be honest the difference between UIAA and CE standards is negligible in the case of harnesses) and every batch passes. We’ve been producing harnesses for over 21 years now and our record for both safety and integrity are without question.

Since receiving your harness, I’ve personally had the opportunity to look at, hang in, climb in, take short harsh falls, take long soft falls, and belay multiple falls using your harness at the gym next to BD. Utilizing our harness dummy in our tensile testing machine, the QA team proof loaded it to the CE requirement of 15kN and we’ve also individually proof tested the waist belt to the CE requirement of 10kN in our tensile tester.

In all scenarios, we could not get your harness to slip in any way.

As far as the video you posted on the mountain project thread. What you’ve done is grab the sides of the buckle and overcome the release angle by pulling out on the buckle. Every harness buckle out there can be over-ridden in such a way albeit some easier than others for sure, but they all can be overridden when pulling out like that – even traditional double-back buckles. The way you’re pulling out on the buckle is not representative of any typical loading scenario in the field I believe.

The reality is that all manufacturers’ speed-style buckles slip to some extent and BD is constantly working to mitigate this while still allowing for the easiest operation possible. In addition, there are certainly some scenarios which can affect this as well:

o Out of recommended fit range
o Improper fitting (wearing) of the harnesses
o Repeated loading and unloading
o Inadvertent lifting of the buckle

All manufacturers also warn against mis-fit harnesses and most specifically direct the user to constantly pay attention to buckle adjustments (excerpts of BD, Petzl, and Metolius instructions pasted below). It’s clear that you have to ensure proper fit, check your gear, and ensure you check throughout the day.

Relative to your harness, it is conceivable that the harness wasn’t buckled properly, or fit snugly enough, was outside of the recommended fit range, or caught on something when weighted. Since we were not able to recreate the slipping, it’s impossible for us to know the cause.

We’re going to continue testing your harness with increasingly bizarre scenarios, attempting to recreate the slippage. In the meantime, we will be sending you a replacement harness since we have impacted yours with our testing procedures.

I hope that makes sense.

Sincerely,

Kolin Powick
Director of Quality
Black Diamond Equipment

From the Black Diamond instructions:
blackdiamondequipment.com/u…

2. Tighten the waistbelt and, if present, the leg loops by pulling the webbing tail (f) away from the buckles (k and m) until comfortably snug. Thread the webbing tails into the belt loops (g). The Speed-Adjust buckles come pre-threaded and should only require re-threading if taken completely apart. Follow Figure 3 to complete re-threading.
3. The waistbelt must fit snugly around your waist. It should ride below your rib cage and above the top of your hipbone. The leg loops should fit snugly but shouldn’t restrict movement.
4. At least 8 cm (3 in) of webbing tail must extend from both waistbelt buckles and both leg loop buckles after they have been adjusted correctly (see Figure 3).

· It is essential that you wear the correct size and that your harness fits you well. Before using your harness, hang in it from a safe place to ensure you’ve chosen the correct size and adjusted it for a comfortable fit.
· The size designation and circumference range (in centimeters and in inches) of Black Diamond harnessess are located on the RN label on the harness waistbelt.
· Putting on your harness and tying in requires your absolute attention. Establish a routine. Complete every action, double-check all buckles and knots, and avoid distractions. During use, frequently double-check that your harness is properly buckled and that you are
tied in to the rope correctly.
· Climbing harness buckles hold the webbing securely when loaded. When not loaded, or when repetitively loaded and unloaded the webbing may gradually creep through the buckle and eventually come undone. Checkyour harness frequently during use to ensure that the waistbelt is snug.

From Petzl’s instructions
petzl.com/files/all/technic…

Inspection, points to verify
Before each use, check the condition of the webbing, the stitched rope loops at the tie-in point, the adjustment buckles and the load-bearing stitching.
Check for cuts, wear and damage caused by use (look out for
cut or torn threads).
Verify that the buckles operate properly.

From Metolius’ instructions
Fitting your Harness
Place the waist belt just above your hips with the buckle on the left side and the tie-in point centered in front. Tighten the waist belt snugly, and double pass the buckle (fig. 8). Make sure the waist belt cannot be pulled down over the hips.

It is essential that your harness fits you and is adjusted correctly. These instructions are guidelines only. You are personally responsible for fitting and using your harness correctly. If in doubt, contact Metolius at (541) 382-7585 or info@metoliusclimbing.com"

RNclimber wrote:...and frankly I was tired of all the BS/non-constructive comments here that I gave up on trying to inform the public or help anyone else out with the problem I experienced.

Well, for every juvenile on here making snide comments there's probably 5 or 10 other people who made good use of the info you posted...

The reply he sent you is almost identical to that which he sent me. I kindof wish they would send us a little more of a follow-up. Maybe they should post something about this on their journal page.

-Ian

RN, how do you feel about the outcome? Did BD's answer satisfy you?

Also, did you see the other thread about a failure?

Peter Stokes wrote:there's probably 5 or 10 other people who made good use of the info you posted...

"If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood. And therefore... ...A witch! "

Good use of the info you said? Can't wait for all those brand new harnesses to pop up on geartrade...

Ian McG wrote:The reply he sent you is almost identical to that which he sent me. I kindof wish they would send us a little more of a follow-up. Maybe they should post something about this on their journal page. -Ian

What kind of follow-up are you looking for? They already said that they tested the harnesses in a bunch of scenarios and couldn't reproduce the problem...you think they should post on their site "hey, some people have reported problems with our harnesses!"? No company in their right mind would instill doubt into their products, especially when there is absolutely no factual evidence of such events.

JLP wrote: Probably something similar to the drama he came here for.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Look would can't seem to follow guideline #1 anymore!

Not that you are wrong. Sometimes it's just gotta be said and there ain't no easy way to say it.

These harness failure threads are a hoot! Keep 'em coming guys!

Ian Stewart wrote: What kind of follow-up are you looking for? They already said that they tested the harnesses in a bunch of scenarios and couldn't reproduce the problem...you think they should post on their site "hey, some people have reported problems with our harnesses!"? No company in their right mind would instill doubt into their products, especially when there is absolutely no factual evidence of such events.

Well, is totally ignoring it a better way to handle it? This has turned into a BD witch hunt, and i think it would be responsible if they posted an official response stating that there is nothing wrong, or even explaining the whole controversy. Also, they told me, as well as RNclimber i think, that they would continue to do testing, and keep me in the loop.

-Ian

I agree, a better "public" response would be appreciated. I'm not saying they have to use their own website to make themselves butt hurt, but some sort of announcement would help. If anything, this issue has started all kinds of rumors about their speed buckles and without a public announcement at least confirming the problem harness infact presented no problems, they are not making the situation any easier on themselves.

Considering the complete lack of credibility of the original report and the ensuing string of idiotic comments/unsupported opinions/made in 'murica drivel, I really can't imagine why BD wouldn't release an official response here on the proj after contacting the interested parties directly.

Buy Metolius and STFU already.

Ian McG wrote:Well, is totally ignoring it a better way to handle it? This has turned into a BD witch hunt, and i think it would be responsible if they posted an official response stating that there is nothing wrong, or even explaining the whole controversy. Also, they told me, as well as RNclimber i think, that they would continue to do testing, and keep me in the loop. -Ian

They didn't ignore anything. They took your harness, tested it, found no problem, and sent you a new one. You think they should make an announcement saying that "some people have reported problems, but we've tested and have concluded that nothing is wrong"? From a business standpoint, do you think that's a) necessary or b) a good idea? Like I said before, such an announcement would only instill doubt into people and would not be good for the company. Until they find out that something is actually wrong, I think they're doing the right thing by keeping quiet. If they find something wrong and THEN keep quiet, that's a whole different story.

Mitch Musci wrote:If anything, this issue has started all kinds of rumors about their speed buckles and without a public announcement at least confirming the problem harness infact presented no problems, they are not making the situation any easier on themselves.

I think the amount of people reading these few MP threads pales in comparison to the number of people that use and buy BD harnesses every day. I don't think you'll see any divots in their sales charts because of MP.com.