Steep Snow Protection.

What’s going on!

My buddies and I were hiking a line this past weekend and it was really steep and the snow was bullet proof. As we hiked we all mentioned that we should probably be using some kind of protection. What are some ways for 2-3 skiers to protect themselves while they hike. I understand rock and ice protection pretty well but I have no experience on this subject other than what I can apply from these 2 other disciplines. I feel like this is a silly question but thought I would ask anyways.

Thanks!

-Ben

Pickets.

Crampons & ice axes?

Set up a running belay between you and your partner.
set either long screws (might have to dig to get the ice), snow pickets or snow anchors.
keep a minimum of 3 pieces of pro between you and your partner and your set.

a good mountaineering axe should be fine. Make sure you know how to and have practiced self-arresting

instead of pickets, you can 'dead man' your poles. I assume you use extendable poles that fold up to about the size of a picket. simply put a runner around it and clip it to the rope.

Steep snow climbing is just terrifying. Traversing steep snow with no protection or anchor trying to find the security of alpine ice.

Rowdy Wrangellian wrote:Steep snow climbing is just terrifying. Traversing steep snow with no protection or anchor trying to find the security of alpine ice.

Yeah, just not EVER gonna do that!

That looks like a ton of fun. you did not use any type of protection? how would you typically protect that? how does a place protection, seems like pickets wold be a hassel to carry and set.

Crampons and an axe or two is usually steep snow protection if rock walls of the couloir do not offer gear placements.

Most realistically you just don't fall. If you must be roped together then pickets or deadmen are likely your only option.

Skis make great belay anchors. The book Backcountry Skiing by Martin Volken describes several different methods to use, notably with your skis sideways as a deadman, vertical out of the snow, or still on the sitting belayer's feet with the tails dug in. Bollards are also an option. If it's belayed and the belay anchor seems reliable, you could do unprotected pitches with the only consequencse being that the leader would slide twice as far as the distance above the belayer.

There's lots of info about how to place snow anchors on the internet. Here's a cool PDF about different testing of ultimate strength, and it features a nice blend of scientific results and practical advice.
alpineclub.org.nz/documents…

The upright Midclip with an MSR coyote and a double length dyneema sling is what I have the most experience in, which was excellent for the wet, compactable, maritime snow of the Cascades.

Snickers bars are reportedly to work pretty well as dead man anchors in heavy consolidated snow. The point being that you can use just about any object if the snow is strong enough, not that you should belay off of your snacks.

or a cliff bar

You get comfortable on steep snow, and solo wherever possible. Dead-maned pickets are strong, but take forever. Think a total of 10 minutes to get a solid one in and out. In very hard snow you can pound pickets vertically, but they are not strong. If you must have protection, do one of two things: simul with one very solid dead maned picket between you at any moment, or pitch it out with one very solid picket at each belay. There is no way you can keep three solid pieces of snow protection between partners unless you want to move at a snails pace... a pace that leaves you exposed to the significant objective hazard that is usual on steep snow/ice faces and gullies.

I do NOT recommend dead manning ski/trekking poles. This will work for a rappel anchor. In a fall situation the ski pole will buckle and snap.

OReid wrote:In very hard snow you can pound pickets vertically, but they are not strong.

In spring snow for practice I have placed 2 ft coyote pickets, let out 20+ feet of slack and slid below on a 40-45 degree slope. Bomber. You must assess the snow. In soft snow self arrest is usually easier anyway so go without pro.

So this may be a dumb question, but in a typical steep snow climbing situation, one typically has a piolet with an adze. How are you supposed to place a picket without a hammer? Do people who intend on placing a picket usually just bring technical tools that have hammers? It seems like that is a lot of weight and irritation to place a picket or two.

I ask this because most people I see always bring pickets on steep snow and no hammer. Just curious what the plan is for placing the pickets or if they are just fashon statements.

Jack,

You just use the side or usually the top of the axe head to pound in the picket.

Rick Blair wrote: In spring snow for practice I have placed 2 ft coyote pickets, let out 20+ feet of slack and slid below on a 40-45 degree slope. Bomber.

A factor 1 "fall" on 40-45 degree snow is not what I would call a test. You don't need pickets on this kind of terrain. If you fall where you need them, on a 50-60 degree slope, you are going ass-over tea-kettle for a long, long, way. It's terrifyingly different from just a slightly lesser angle. You don't place pickets if self arrest is plausible.

That said, vertical pickets *can* be reasonable, but they require knife-hardness snow, and not just the upper crust. These conditions are relatively rare.

Jack, the reason no one carries a hammer is that you must bury, not drive, the picket in order for it to provide reasonable protection. If you can drive the picket with the side of a mountaineering axe, I'd say the snow isn't hard enough, and you should bury (dead-man) it. For this task, the adze is a perfect tool. If the snow is so hard that you need to drive the picket, and steep enough to need protection, then you probably need technical ice tools to climb it anyway.

For ski mountaineering you use one or two whippets and if it is really firm snow, lightweight aluminum crampons. Protection is pointlessy heavy and time consuming except for very extreme cases, but you wouldnt be skiing something that heinous anyway. Don't fall and if you do I'm sure you'll self arrest in time. Or you won't. That is what makes ski mountaineering somewhat dangerous.

OReid wrote: A factor 1 "fall" on 40-45 degree snow is not what I would call a test.

I let out 20+ feet, started above the picket the entire length of the rope and slid. Definite factor 2 minus any friction in the slide. I will agree this is not as severe as a 60 degree slope but in spring snow, it held without budging. I will try to get up on some steeper angles this spring and test. I will let you know what my results are but by in my limited experiences, pickets are bomber if the snow is firm. If I find the right conditions, maybe I'll even pitch myself off a cornice :-) Either way, in the real world, pickets are rarely used even where they could be.