Could climbing gear be cheaper?

Hey all,

My friend and I have been a little frustrated by how expensive climbing gear is at retail stores. They typically charge a 100% mark up on the gear they buy from manufacturers. Many online stores sell at the same price, or offer old products that nobody wants.

So we've been wondering if it wouldn't be possible to set up a way for customers to interact more directly with manufacturers. If we could accomplish this on a simple website, maybe we could reduce the price of new gear in general. And if climbing gear were cheaper, maybe people would replace sketchy old gear more often...

Basically, we're considering creating a members-only site where manufacturers could sell their gear for cheap, without having those prices show up in the general marketplace. What do you guys think? Could something like that work?

Also, we also created a simple survey to learn more about where people currently purchase gear. You can find it here
The survey only has 9 questions, which take an average of 3 minutes to complete.

If you're psyched, we'd love to get your opinions.

-Keller Rinaudo and Will Hetzler

You asked what COLOR rope we would buy?

And THIS, after one takes the survey:

"Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. We're in the process of setting up a new members-only website that will offer pro-deal prices on brand-name climbing gear. Members will be able to invite their friends, but the site will otherwise be closed to the public.

As a token of our appreciation, we'd like to invite you to the private beta launch of the site. If you're interested, leave your email and we'll hit you up with a free membership when we're ready to ship gear."

Why not just SAY you're doing market research for a company you are considering creating?

Hey Happie,

You're totally right. I've changed the post accordingly. What do people think of the general idea?

Keller

Hey Jace, actually you're totally right. I sort of assumed in writing the survey that there would be far more sport climbers and boulderers than there would be trad climbers, but over 70% of the people who have taken the survey are into trad! So lesson learned: we'll focus on trad gear instead of bouldering pads.

Return policies are sort of tricky. REI does offer a great return policy, but it obviously comes at a high price. Of the five characteristics of climbing shops, climbers actually said that the return policy was the least important to them...

Keller

Just stop the testing and certs and gear will be much cheaper.

Its your life on the line, sometimes the lowest bidder is not the best way to go.

Between MP's geardeals page, used gear, and spadout, one pays retail if they're lazy or need a certain item quickly.

"You’re right that many of our questions were geared towards sport climbing and bouldering. We did this because we thought that focusing on bouldering and sport would be the simplest way to make a big impact.

The problem is that bouldering and Sport Climbing are the least expensive part of Rock Climbing. It is when you start buying the gear to do traditional climbing, big walls, or alpine routes that it all starts to add up. To be honest, if a guy/girl cannot front a couple hundred dollars for a basic sport rack or crashpad, they probably aren't serious about the sport and will end up chucking the stuff in his/her shed.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is the specialized items that you should focus on discounts. And if you want a survey, let people know the honest reason why, no one likes to be tricked.

BUT, all in all, sounds like a cool idea. Just be sure to include all aspects of climbing.

Climbing is cheaper now than it used to be. For example, when I started in the late 80's, climbing shoes started at $100, and most were more like $130. Now you can buy Madrocks for like $70. Adjust the costs for inflation, and it's even cheaper. Add in online deals (sierratradingpost for example) and used gear exchanges like here on MP, and it's cheaper still. Sorry. You kids got it easy these days.

Although I hope that you find a way to be successful with your enthusiasm, your idea is not novel, you lack big picture uderstanding, and your tact in trying to pimp us for info was not there.

gearforall wrote:The crazy thing about the gear industry is that the big distributors often charge twice what they pay for the gear. Why not simplify the system and pass on the savings to climbers?

Uhhmm, this is the story with all retailers. And, like all other industries, the system has already been simplified with a bazillion online retailers that are already doing a very good job of what you think is a novel idea.

"I’ve had an intermittent love affair with climbing for over four years, but have been discouraged by the cost of gear."

So what are you? Passionate climber wanting to improve accessibility of the sport or market researcher trying to scalp some info off climbers in a super shady way?

I won't be taking your survey because I think your approach was uncool.

Finally, I think its interesting about your comment:"want to find a way to give more people access to pro deal level prices."

Let's go over the origin and history of pro-deals. Pro-deals were historically for the very top level of employee in the outdoor industry to offset their high gear costs, to provide visibility for the products brand, and to give real world testing information to the manufacturer. Pro-deal price points were typically 50% of retail. The recipient of pro-deals was entrusted to keep their score very quiet and keep the price paid even quieter

Now, the idea of a pro-deal has expanded to every part time REI employee, 8 week summer camp ropes course belay slave, and any of their friends they can convince to buy them gear. With this, the value has been diluted. Have you noticed that most "pro-deal" offers you get aren't any better deals than you could find with a little legwork? Also, the "real pro-deals" still exist, most of us will just never see them.

If you want to see a comparison of what a true pro-deal is versus a "pro deal for the masses" check out the pro deal web site everyone on here seems to have(we shan't name names, but I think you know the site) has versus direct mailing price lists.

Just my 2 cents.

I've got a slight man-crush on Evan right now. A very heterosexual one though.

I bought my starter gear from an online seller because that's what a mentor-type suggested. Luckily, he also suggested I didn't need cams yet(I was just beginning ground school).

Once I got a little more informed, on both the role of climbing gear shops and what some of the side effects on our consumptive race to the bottom are - I vowed to make my purchases from the local shops whenever possible.

For the majority of climbing gear the average user needs, nearly any local shop, privately owned - which offers so much more than goods - will have the item or get it for you. I order online from ONE place - a general outdoors store, that has one store and does a massive mail-order/online business - Campmor.

The rest goes to Rock and Snow in New Paltz, and the local shops. Climbers always crying poor, bull shit. Look at the cars they roll up to the cliffs in. Look at the brand new packs, tents, ropes.... WHY do people think they need to run out the honest, helpful, local businesses just so they can PRETEND they are frugal. Fools.

May I ask, OP - what your background in climbing is? You signed up to this site just for this post, apparently, but....do you climb? ....Who are you?

Austin Baird wrote:I've got a slight man-crush on Evan right now. A very heterosexual one though.

Thats good cause if it was a homosexual crush you may be run out of town, Provo that is.

Evan You rock! A well constructed argument that calls out B.S. in disguised of a climber. Not to mention the history of the Pro Deal argument, brilliant. Nothing escapes the "wicked sharp" eye and opinion of the east coaster.
You're the man.

Hey guys,

Just thought that I would say more about myself. I'm one of the two college grads working on this project. I've been an avid climber for 6 years, and have played an active role in the community that entire time. I built the Harvard Bouldering Wall when I was a freshman there, and just got back from a climbing trip to China (video: Keller talks about China Climb ).

Over the last couple months, I've spoken with several gear manufacturers. REI actually charges a 100%+ markup on climbing gear and is still demanding lower prices from manufacturers whose margins are already squeezed. Is this the best solution for climbers?

I completely understand if you think that we're crazy. And I'm aware of other sites that have tried to lower the average cost of climbing gear and failed. Does that mean that we're wasting our time? (Not rhetorical, tell me what I don't know and show me that we are!)

Long story short, over 200 people have now taken the survey, and signed up for a beta invitation to a site that would offer uniformly low prices and free shipping on high quality climbing gear (not the dregs that other retailers haven't been able to sell). It seems as though people like the idea, but we're still trying to learn more...

Psyched,
Keller Rinaudo

Keller Rinaudo wrote: Does that mean that we're wasting our time? (Not rhetorical, tell me what I don't know and show me that we are!) It seems as though people like the idea, but we're still trying to learn more... Psyched, Keller Rinaudo

Keller,

Okay, I'll give a little constructive input this time.

First, the biggest thing to success in the outdoor industry is reputation. Just be honest with who you are from the get go, don't make it sound like you're trying to sell us knock off air Jordan's, and wait a month before posting a self-serving, not forthcoming thread.

Yes, the idea of a reliable, universally cheap on a wide array of items website appeals to the climber in me.

No, you are not wasting your time, necesarily. You are, though, entering a little pond with a number of already big fish: the discount online gear site. Whatever your business model is exactly- deal of the day, flat 20% off everyday, etc, etc- you've already got an online gear dealer doing it. The one exception might be a significant, universal discount with an REI like return policy(yeah, I'd buy into that!).

I buy gear from four main types of places: the local guy when I need something now or need beta(also, my local guys put on some rocking sales), a handful of established e-retailers if I can find a great deal, REI (because you can't shake a stick at the warranty), and prodeals.

Basically, it comes down to this: Can I get a super good deal? If yes, I go with that. If not, I'm either paying full price at the local shop for the enhanced service or going to REI because I know I'm 100% protected.

Evan

+100 for Evan!

I'll give Keller credit for posting under his real name, but I feel if you run your business in the same manner as this survey, you will certainly fail.

Like most people, I appreciate a good deal. But the truth is, it is relatively easy to find most climbing gear on 20-30+% sale at online discounters already. How much more of a discount will you offer? If it is only 10-15% more, I would not use your services because the savings is not worth it. I would be very hesitant to give out personal and financial information to anyone who conducts business in a shady way (and that is what I view that survey as).

Like Evan said,reputation is important, and introducing yourself to the climbing community with a lie is not a good way to build a good one.

Have you seen the wholesale price list for Black Diamond? If you have then you should know that companies are not turning a big profit off of hardwear, they are pretty much breaking even. Talk to a owner of a local climbing shop and he will tell you that they sell hardwear as cheap as they can and use the markup on softgoods to keep their local business from going under.

At first I thought "lame, no way I'm answering this stupid survey" but now that I've nothing to do I just answered it with the complete opposite of the truth. Your welcome.

Also, I never pay full retail and know hardly anyone who does. My gear is usually a season behind the latest but it's also typically 50-60% off MSRP.

Well, I will say your rewording of your post is an improvement and far less sketchy than what you originally posted. So, I commend you for correcting previous mistakes.

As far as what you propose, I'm curious to understand how exactly you propose to reduce prices?

You say there is a 100% markup on gear to MSRP. That may be true, but most gear can easily be had at about 30% off MSRP at online discount retailers. That reduces the markup from 100% to 40%. Could it be cheaper? Perhaps. But anyone trying to sell gear has to make a profit and it is hard to imagine any small, private club being able to undercut large scale online retailers.

Are you suggesting that online retailers could in fact make a profit with even lower prices but are currently not doing so because they are contractually obligated to sell gear at above a certain price and by creating a private club you could get around such contractual obligations?

If they are not contractually obligated to keep prices at a certain level, then how can you possibly sell for less? It seems like basic free market economics that if a company could profitably sell for less, it would do so, and take business away from competitors. What advantage would you have that would allow you to cut your costs below online retailers?

As far as how much demand there would be for this service, I think it depends on how easy it would be to join the club. Honestly, gear isn't that big of a concern for me. Especially since you seem to be concentrating on sport gear. All the gear for sport climbing is less than a few hundred bucks. That pales in comparison to other costs associated with climbing (cracks ripping up my climbing clothes, gas to get to different crags, etc.). Climbers may be cheap, but many of the costs aren't gear related. Since you said you went to Harvard, I will use a Harvard sport climbing example... the cost in gas for one trip from Harvard to Rumney and back is about the price of 4 quickdraws. If you go with any regularity, the cost of actually getting to the cliff will quickly exceed any gear cost.

We are lucky in Boulder that the cliffs are so close, but even so, I probably spend 100x as much in gas each year driving to South Platte, Lumpy, Shelf, Moab, etc as I do on gear.

I guess what I am saying is that though climbers may be dirtbags, it isn't the cost of the gear that is a limiting factor (food, shelter, and transportation dominate). I am unsure how much savings you could add on top of large scale online discount retailers, and I would be seriously worried to invest in such a risky business proposal...

...but if you do it and you can provide reasonable savings, perhaps I would consider it the next time I am looking for gear.

Bumping this up so that it is next to the reworked post.

Couple things here... markup of 100% on climbing gear? I don't think this is correct. Post a link or some other backup info. The margin on climbing gear is pretty low. Soft goods (ie clothing) is where most retailers make their money,a nd even then I don't think the margins are at 100%.

Second thing, climbing is definitely cheaper than it used to be. As someone else posted before, look at the cost of shoes. During the '80s and 90s a decent pair of shoes would typically run you $120 to $150. Now, add inflation for 20 to 25 years and compare it to the cost of shoes now. Monster difference.

Cams? BD Camalots were 59.95 FOREVER, like back into the '80s. Again, add about 20 to 25 years of inflation and compare to prices now. Monster difference.

Ropes? Look at what ropes cost in the 60's. Crusher Barlett's new Desert Towers book briefly talks about the comparative cost of ropes then versus now. Beyond Monster difference.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but if you are going to take the fire truck for a drive, make sure there is a fire first.